Maybe this isn’t a fail, per se, but my sourdough results are not up to snuff, at least physically. As an eating experience they’ve been consistently wonderful (and my wife wishes I would just center my attention on that instead of obsessing over details…and, I admit, part of me agrees) ergo, not technically a fail.
However–specifically–I am just not getting the oven spring I’d like. Every online source I consult largely say the same thing: strong starter, quality flour, well-developed gluten, proper proofing. I just baked a loaf this morning that checked all the boxes but came flatter than the last few I’ve done.
The starter was great: quadrupled in post-feed volume, lots of bubbles. I’ve bought strong bread flour, emmer and eikorn from Janie’s Mill which I believe I heard about from this website (?) and from what I understand it’s high quality organic. This last loaf was 40% einkorn, 75% hydration and I achieved a respectable windowpane before bulk. I bulk prove by volume (not time) in a plastic bin to monitor the rise and took it out when it reached a 25% expansion. ( I should say here that while doing the coil and stretch and fold and then the post-bulk shaping, I was getting some sizeable bubbles throughout. Something I’ve not encountered before. First red flag?). It fermented in the fridge for 18 hours. I spritz water into the dutch oven just before putting it into the oven.
When I took it out to bake it had a nice rise to it, nothing drastic. But when I took it out of the banneton onto the peel it flattened a bit which was the second red flag. When it was done I could see it hadn’t risen very well. I compared the side-profile foto I took of the loaf preceding this one and that had a much better rise; maybe 30% better. And I thought THAT loaf could’ve been a little better (that one was same procedure but with 40% emmer). They both had a couple of quite large bubble holes close to the top crust which I presume indicates SOMEthing but I don’t know what.
So I don’t know what I could’ve possibly done different. Thoughts?
Edited to add: I’m glad you’re enjoying the bread and I can relate to the never-ending quest for improvement! Emmer and einkorn are lovely choices.
My thought is 25% rise for the bulk is too little. I aim for 50-100% and usually go over 75%. The 18 hour refrigerated final proof will make up some fermentation ground but not a whole lot since the brakes (cold) are being thrown on the process early in the exponential curve.
Do you have any photos? That could be helpful for the diagnostics.
Here’s a 50% bread flour 50% khorasan/durum mix. I shaped at a little less than 100% expansion, and RT final proof for maybe 1.5 hours. Starter was cold and a week old so that almost 100% expansion took a long time.
Hi–sorry for the delayed reply. I thought I had email alerts for these things, never received one, and figured no one had weighed in. Anyway…
First, a furtherance of the saga: in that janie’s Mill shipment I also got a bag of dark rye. So I thought I’d get right back on the horse and make a loaf with the same measurements as the emmer and eikorn I spoke of in the orig post (40% + 60% bread flour). I have a feeling you’re cringing when you read that. I should mention here that on the emmer loaf I went with 70% hydration while with the einkorn I went with 75% just for the sake of science.
Well, that was a bit of a mess. Even though I went with 65% hydration it was a sticky mass. It never developed any glutenous strength. It never reached a stretchable state. Even after many stretch/folds. Even after the bulk proof I couldn’t stretch it out to a square for final shaping because it tore immediately. I thought the 60% strong bread flour would make up for rye’s lack of gluten.
So given its “condition” I didn’t think I’d get much of a rise in bulk, and after I put it in the container and into the warm oven I went for a walk; carefree that I’d return to some activity but still a bit to go. When I got home it had risen to a tad over 100%! I was chastened. That was it, I thought. A sticky, inflexible, over-proofed mess. Yay!
Well, as expected it baked flat and dense. But to my surprise the score had split open quite a bit which puzzled me because where does that come from when there is no oven spring?
Anyway. I’ll not be doing that with rye again. The Foodgeek has a master recipe that started me down this road and pretty successfully, so I guess I’ll go back to that. But for now it’s emmer and eikorn for me, although I put in another order to Janie’s which included a bag of Turkey Red wheat which sounded interesting.
I’ve attached fotos of all three of the aforementioned loaves and labelled them for your reference. I’m particularly interested in your thoughts one why I was getting those large air bubble in the emmer and einkorn. It was almost like the starter was TOO active, tho I can’t imagine that would be a problem.
Anyway, thx for the reply. Sorry for the length (but I like to be thorough)
alan b
ps–oops. I can only upload up to 5 images. I’ll send 2 in a second reply
Large bubbles around the edges can be be a shaping artifact – the dough wasn’t de-gassed as much there, or a layer of flour got introduced.
It can also just be about the dynamics of oven heat and weak gluten. In the oven, gas production and dough expansion happens at the edges of the dough first (heat penetration) – but the gluten isn’t particularly strong so the expanded bubbles pop and the dough sets with big holes. In the center and bottom of the dough, the weight of the dough doesn’t allow for as much expansion.
edited to add: the 40% emmer and 40% einkorn loaves look good to me, and I take back the suggestion that they might be underproofed from only 25% expansion. The crumb doesn’t look underproofed.
40:60 rye-to-bread flour is great! No cringing here. Rye is sticky and has minimal gluten strength, so your experience is understandable. Your crumb looks pretty good too. No dense wet areas is a win!
The score bloom tends to happen as long as a dough isn’t super low gluten (e.g. all rye or all einkorn) or if the dough isn’t utterly overfermented/proofed (i.e. it still has some oomph to expand with the oven heat).
Eric’s recipe for a Swedish style artisan rye is 50:50 with rye and bread flour, and many of the comments that follow the post it say, “ack! so sticky!” You can see all sorts of results from people who’ve made the recipe, including me when I was only a few months into baking bread. My first attempt at it looked a bit like a frisbee
Interesting about the rye. I mean I didn’t expect a ton of spring, but if you say it looks pretty good, I’ll take it (and my wife with say “told ya so”). So you don’t think I was a victim of egregious over-proofing from taking my ill-advised walk? I’ve never let a dough bulk proof so much before.
How does one de-gas? As I mentioned initially, I was getting all kinds of really big gas bubbles when stretch/folding as well as shaping so I just kept pinching them. Also I don’t use much (if any) dry flour in the lead-up to baking so I don’t think that was the cause. I use water more for stickiness avoidance (a bowl along side to wet my fingers)
So you don’t think there’s an over-active starter issue, I take it. Like I said, I don’t even know if that’s a thing. But these loaves were the beneficiaries of the most bubbly starter I’ve ever had.
I’ve heard about too hot a bake can cause the outer surface to bake too quickly, but temp is one variable I haven’t messed with, so…? Perhaps I’ll go with 425º (instead of 450-500) see if that makes a difference.
Well thanks for all the input. I’ll def check out the recipes you shared.
Sure. I’m actually getting the swipe-the-doughball-towards-me over and over with the scraper, trying to establish surface tension. Not quite there yet but I’m getting close. Biggest impediment to that is my always too sticky dough no matter what my formulation is. I mean I look at these emmer/rilorda recipes and I’m pretty much on point but still…
I give’em a go however. Just wondering, would you consider emmer and einkorn interchangeable in most recipes?
Emmer is stronger and more thirsty than einkorn in my experience.
Is your Janie’s Mill bread flour the 13.6% protein 80% extraction one called “High Protein”
or is it the 12.2% protein 90% extraction “Artisan Blend” one?
Either way, both have more bran and germ than “white” bread flour, which is around 70% extraction – and the latter especially is quite different from white bread flour because of its lower protein level too.
That could be where some of your different experience is coming from. These higher extraction flours are more flavorful and have more fiber and nutrients, but they won’t be quite as bubble-gum stretchy as white flour.
Interesting. I started out using King Arthur bread flour; I want to say 12.7% protein? But then, as I got into this baking craziness, I thought I’d invest in what I perceived (righty/wrongly) higher quality flours. First I bought some from some outfit in…Oregon?…then I heard tell about Janie’s and have been going with that. (BTW I’m feeling guilty that I’m getting all this help from Breadtopia but not buying your flour. Good ol’ Catholic guilt) I like the idea of getting as much protein in as possible.
I’m not clear on the extraction concept. It seems counter-intuitive that a higher extraction would have more germ/bran than lower. I would’ve thought extraction referred to removal of bran/germ.
BTW, an insight into the way my mind works: I want to make a loaf the whole wheat component of which (40%) would be half’n’half emmer/einkorn. Why? I dunno. Why do I have to include Grape Nuts with my CHeerios? I just can’t leave well enough alone. And I want something to be my personal expression.
I am sure Janie’s Mill stoneground bread flour is high quality, and we’re happy to help with your baking regardless of the flour you’re using. Plus, conversations in the forum help many people. I found Breadtopia via lurking, reading, and eventually posting in the forum.
I hear you on the extraction definition. It helps if you think of it as extraction from the milling process. So if you have 100 kg wheat going into a stone mill and 90 kg after milling and sifting, then that is 90% extraction from the milling process available to bag up and sell.
Creating a recipe/formula that fits your flavor, texture, aroma etc preferences is so satisfying. Enjoy!!
So after my bake Saturday I wrote out a blow-by-blow for you but I’m feeling like I’ve bothered you enough. But I will attach pix here for your edification.
In short, I followed precisely the 30% einkorn recipe you provided the link for and still my results were lackluster (except for the eating!). The dough was still a sticky challenge; it seemed to over-rise in bulk (see photo); it stuck to the banneton turn-out and subsequent slide from peel to Dutch oven; combined with the inelegant scoring significant deflation occurred. The spring was minimal; crumb: dense. Flavor: fantastic.
I just don’t get it. My starter was a bubbly beauty so that wasn’t an issue. One of the biggest deviation from my usual modus operandi was the 1-hour room temp, in-banneton proof before fridge retard. I’ve never done that, but the recipe dictated it. I feel that contributed to the sizable rise in retard. I wonder if I should lower the hydration?
So…I dunno. I’ll keep trying but I don’t know what tweaks to try next. I’ve tried so many.
Anyway, thanks for your patience and assistance.
ab
Image 6585: shows rise after 17hr retard, a good 50% rise from when it went into fridge.
Image 6586: seemingly good score opening but note sizable unintended fissures
Image 6591: the non-spring.
Ultimately we can never follow someone else’s bread/fermentation recipe to a T because we have different room temperatures, starter strengths, and hands even (that whole baker hand microbiome thing that was in the news a while back).
On top of that, you have a bread flour with more bran and germ, so your starter is going to gobble it up faster and it will have less gluten development potential than white bread flour.
All that is to say, the time parameters given by bread recipes are suggestions only, and you should trust your observations of your dough. I try to include photos of my dough in the gallery after the recipes so people can see how much or little it has expanded. However, even with that, there is quite a range of what will turn out to be a nice bread.
I think your bread is certainly in that range with a nice crumb and no dense areas. For more height, it might just be about stopping the final proof when the dough is less expanded or using less water.
Here’s a great blog post about the big picture sourdough stuff that I should have linked you to earlier:
That “Demystifying…” article you linked me to just deepens my belief that I have already accumulated all the “knowledge” I need; that I should stop watching every YouTube video and just make bread using my experience. There are innumerable opinions and formulae flying around that, frankly, can take the pleasure out of it all if ones spends enough time with them (and I’ll wager I’m not telling YOU something you don’t already know).
And so it is that I have come upon a recipe that I can use as a starting point, well, forever, and be happy. I’ve probably mentioned The Foodgeek before; this Danish dude with a YouTube channel largely (but not exclusively) devoted to sourdough (a geek in other arenas, he developed a great bread dough calculator. Really ingenious). He’s been as close to a sour guru that I’ve come across. A few months ago he posted a 30% einkorn recipe which caught my eye as I had begun to accumulate the ancient grain flours. So I watched the vid and couldn’t believe my eyes/ears.
In short, he mixes the ingredients fully, bulks to 25%, turns it out to shape, and then straight into the banneton and refrigerator. No stretch/folds. No checking for windowpanes. No dough sitting around on the counter for a coupla. Just mix and proof. The resulting loaf—as with everything he turns out—was beautiful.
So this last loaf of mine was made thusly and I see no reason to look back. The crumb is not as airy as I’d like but, meh. I will attach fotos to show you. Sune’s (his name is Sune) recipe called for 80% hydration which I just could not abide. Somehow he is able to handle high-hydration dough with aplomb which I have not been able to master. Also, I took to heart what you said in your last re using a lower hydration. So I thought, what the hey, and went with 65%.
After the 25% bulk, I turned it out onto the counter and its elasticity was great as I teased it into a square for shaping. Had no stickiness issue to the point that, finally, I was able to do a decent “stitching” that will only improve with experience. After ~18 hours I baked as usual and the result you can see.
This is not to say I’ll eschew the forums completely, but I just want to make/eat bread. THAT would be time well spent. So thanks for listening and advising. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go feed my starter for the next loaf
Your bread looks lovely and I think you’re on the right track – figure out what works for your taste buds, flour supply, and dough handling preferences.
I took a look at the recipe for 30% einkorn by Sune. He makes two loaves of 700g each. That is on the smaller size and good for maximizing oven spring. (Heat gets to the center of the dough faster, and there is less weighing down of the dough…by the dough ) The trade-off is you get less bread or have multiple loaves/baking vessels. I don’t know if you were following his baker’s percentages only and making a bigger loaf or if your loaves are also that small, but it is something I figured I’d mention.
VERY interesting about the loaf size. I never would’ve thought of that but it makes a lot of sense.
Yeah I never made mine that small (he always makes two just to demonstrate a boule and a batard shaping, tho he has mentioned he likes them that size). And yes, those loaves would be too small for this household. So I’ve settled on ~850 gr loaves as that fits best in my banneton, and it sits better in the bottom section of the Lodge Dutch oven I use without cramping its growth. I use Sune’s calculator to downsize the percentages.
Well I just mixed up a dough ball and proceeded to really screw up. I was planning to make a loaf like this einkorn only using emmer instead, just for yucks. I also had this new flour from Janie’s called Turkey Red I wanted to try instead of the usual bread flour. It wasn’t until I had added about half of the Turkey that I realized, hey wait, this is whole grain! I was thinking it was a white bread flour.
I stopped there and added in the remaining percentage of white bread so I’ve ended up with a 30% emmer, 36% Turkey Red, and 34% white bread. The hydration will be slightly more than the 65% I used before as I added a tad more starter into it.
So, yeah, this should be interesting. I’ll share pix. I’m expecting it to be unattractive but damn delicious
Well…well, well, well. So much for screwing up a recipe. I just cut open that mistakenly 2/3 whole grain loaf. BTW to compound the error, I accidentally allowed it to bulk 50% when I’d wanted to go just 25%. But I couldn’t be happier with it. I’ll let you judge for yourself, but it’s got a nice, even crumb. Doesn’t have holes you can drive a truck through but it’s still pretty open considering.
And man o man, the favor is wonderful. Sweet and nutty. I’ll have to make more mistakes in the future!
That looks great! Trying different wheat varieties is really fun and tasty. Turkey red has a neat history you can read about here (if you haven’t already) Heirloom Turkey Red Wheat Berries – Breadtopia
Well, now that I have jones to make happy mistakes, I’m thinking of doing similar ratios for einkorn/emmer/white; maybe dark rye/black emmer/white; or Turkey/rye/white.
I may have noted in one of our several exchange, but I have a history of not leaving well enough alone; always need to mix things up, e.g. I can’t have just Cheerios. Have to mix in some Grape Nuts.
So if one or all of these turn out memorably I’ll be sure to share a foto.
So I did the rye / emmer combo. See pix for results. Having been constantly told how hard is is to get a good loaf of bread with too much whole grain, these last two attempts have been a real eye-opener. And that previous “mistake” reassured me that obsessing over too many details is a fool’s game. I just want to eat good bread; and making it myself is a real bonus.
So the mistake, you’ll recall, was basically 2/3 whole grain 1/3 white. It was supposed to be 60% white 40% emmer. This last loaf I decided to go with the latter proportions, only reversed. And wanting to experiment with the two varieties I went with 30%emmer and 30% dark rye (40% Manitoba white); hydration was >65%. Also, inspired by the goofy German dude of YouTube’s “The Bread Code” I made an autolyse the night before and was surprised at the elasticity
the next morning; with no stretch/fold beyond getting ingredients combined. This wasn’t supposed to happen which so much whole grain, or so I thought.
Of course, I had to screw up something, right? You’ll notice how dark the crust is; too dark for my tastes at least. Well, early on in my sourdough journey, one or two sources said to run the convection fan when the the dough is covered and turn it off upon uncovering (I never understood why, but since I was an impressionable rookie, I did it and have kept doing it).I also went with 500º instead of my usual 450-475. Well, you guessed it, I forgot to turn the convection fan off when I uncovered it. When I checked it after just 8 minutes, this was the result. I will never use the convection again.
But it’s not at all a disaster. I just don’t want to get the crust that over-baked again. Otherwise it’s a delicious loaf. My only confusion (too strong a word, but…) is that it’s not terribly sour even after 21 hours in the fridge. Also, I don’t think I’ll mix w.w. and rye again. The bread doesn’t know what it wants to taste like.
Anyway, enjoy the pix. Thx for you time. I’ll leave you alone now. Hope I haven’t been too much of a pest.
