Mystery Starter

Sourdough Starter
1

I’ve been baking, pretty successfully, sourdough bread for two years now. My starter, which I feed (visually vs. measuring), with a mix of unbleached AP AND rye flour and ‘homemade’ water (boiled, filtered), used to peak between 4 and 5 hours like clockwork.

Suddenly, within the last month, it wants 12 hours!!! Plus, although it more than doubles, with lots of nice big holes showing on the sides of the jar, it isn’t getting the bread up. I’m suddenly pulling sourdough discs out of the oven, not loaves!

The sponge (which is out 4 hours and then refrigerated for 12) behaves normally. Kneading is normal: the dough becomes springy at the usual 9 minute mark (I knead by hand). But the first rise takes 3-4 hours longer and when I go to shape it, I can tell immediately that the spring isn’t there and the second rise is not strong at all.

Before The Trouble, it was very forgiving: I could still shape my loaves even if I had over proofed. I eventually started shaping earlier and got higher loaves, but again, they were decent either way. Those days are gone.

I hesitate posting this because I am not a science baker – I just lucked out and got something to work for me and repeated it successfully for all this time – I can’t tell you what hydration percentage I work at or any of that. I’ve tried re-building it from a cup or so more than once, I’ve tried keeping it out on the patio, in a corner, in the light, out of the light, thicker, thinner, feeding it more often, less often. But all it wants is to be fed once every day, after it’s 12 hour peak, and before it completely dies down.

So any theories as to what has changed? I live in Florida, and the A/C has been on since mid-May (again, trouble only began in August). We change the filter religiously. My flour is the same, my water is the same, my utensils and bowl are the same. COVID-19 perhaps? This is my last stop before changing to a yeast bread recipe.

Thanks for being here…

~S

2

This is definitely a mystery! If your starter doubles, there’s no reason it shouldn’t be able to double your bread dough. Just would need more time. I’ll think about it…

3

Thinking about this more, if I kept my starter at room temp and it peaked after 12 hours, I would be feeding it twice a day, not once as you mention. I believe peaking or just after peaking is when the microbial population is highest and the food supply is about to run out. So that’s when I feed. If you’re letting the starter sit at warm temps post peak for 12 hours, it could be starving?

The only other thing I could think of is: if your starter takes 12 hours to peak and before it took 4 hours, you can expect your bread to need about 3 times longer for the first rise than previously. Are you giving the dough that long / letting it expand as much as prior before shaping it?

4

Thanks for your comments Fermentada. I do appreciate your time.

I’ll try working with that feeding schedule and see what happens.

I’m giving the dough as much time as it needs. And it does eventually expand. It’s just exhausted by the time it’s there – you can feel it immediately. Perhaps I shouldn’t let it expand as much. I’ve never had luck identifying proofing stages with the finger poke method. It all looks the same to me, so I would just eyeball how high it got.

I’ll report back after working with it another week or so.

5

I think I’m understanding now what what you’re saying about “exhausted” – some highly enzymatic flours start to become proteolytic (gluten destruction) if they ferment too long, and this can also happen with unfed sourdough starter (room temp and left hungry). Here’s a blog post someone wrote about it that maybe will resonate. Good luck! (Maybe feed with cold water or refrigerate between peaks.)

6

I’ll peruse, thanks again.

Although, the real mystery remains: why did it suddenly change from 4 hours to 12 hours?

7

Okay, I just pulled two of the highest, most beautiful pure sourdough loaves I’ve baked to date, out of the oven. And this is thanks to you Fermentada! That article you suggested hit the nail on the head, but the conversation with you is what did it. I saw how stuck I was in my head when I re-read our exchange , and how I just needed to rededicate myself to what the starter needed, not how I thought it should work. And by the by, the starter is now down to a 5.5 hour rise. But it’s back in the fridge, and we’ll see what happens when it’s baking time and I have to transition it again.

Blessings upon you, Bread Witch Lady! :smile:

8

Congratulations on your tall loaves and lively starter. I love my new nickname. Thank you :blush:

Your description had triggered a memory of a cottage baker reaching out to me for help about his dough “cracking apart” during shaping. I didn’t know what he meant, but contacted a science-y home baker friend who suggested it might be proteolytic starter issue. Using the starter at or just before the peak solved the problem. Years later, I used a bunch of discard along with some lively starter in a dough because I just wanted to clean the jar out, and my dough was exhausted and crack-y during shaping too. Never-ending learning in this craft!

9

To the Bread Witch Lady – Mystery Starter here.

My starter is now apparently supersonic, it rose out of it’s container in two hours instead of four. It surprised me so I didn’t catch it in time, and instead of waiting for the next schedule cycle, I chose to test out something I’ve wondered about: doesn’t it make sense to create a sponge with hungrier (vs. still eating) starter? Obviously, starving starters are their own category of problem, but I’m talking about just- finished- eating versus still- eating. I went ahead and made the sponge, which rose higher than usual, and the loaves were beautiful. Perhaps the higher sponge has to do with the current supersonic quality of my starter, but couldn’t it be that a starter with an appetite is going to be more motivated than a starter with food already on the table?

If only yeasties could talk…

10

Mystery Starter,

I’m so glad to hear your starter is now supersonic!

I also wonder when is the best time to use starter: just before peak, peak, just after peak. And then, of course, we have this fun experiment that @homebreadbaker inspired me to do and helped me design, which shows a small amount of cold unfed starter can make a great bread.

I most often bake with just-before-peak starter due to my own impatience, or starter that I fed just before refrigerating, which has subsequently expanded since I let it warm up to room temp on baking day, but some of the bubbles in are definitely from days prior in the refrigerator, so maybe the microbial population isn’t as high as it looks…
Yes, I’d like to chat with the starter as well!

There’s a book called “Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation” by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff that may have the answers to these questions. It has been on my TBR pile for years.

And this all gets even more confusing when you look at very stiff starters, such as what’s used in panettone. Low hydration starter can take a very long time to deflate, and there are fascinating techniques like bathing to lower acidity and binding to keep them from peaking too soon. @djd418 , the author of this recipe, may be able to expand on that.

Sincerely,
Bread Witch Lady :slight_smile:

11

Hi Mystery Starter, Dan (@djd413) here. Sounds like your starter is back in the land of the living and that feeding it twice a day has solved your issues. I recently read a blog post about working with starters which mentioned that if you want to really maximize the activity of your starter, you should feed it as soon as it doubles. If your starter ever has the same issue again, feeding as soon as it doubles for 2 or 3 feedings in a row should really bolster its strength.

Regarding stiff starters (~50% hydration) that @Fermentada mentioned, bakers in Europe frequently use this type of starter instead of the 100% hydration starters and they have developed some interesting techniques for maintaining them including binding and bathing. Binding involves forming the stiff starter into a sausage-like shape, wrapping it in cling wrap or a food safe bag, over-wrapping it with a stout tea towel and then binding it with a strong cord like a sausage. The starter will build up pressure (see second link, below) and get quite hard and at that point the fermentation process slows down, allowing you to store it for longer than usual without over-ripening. Bathing involves cutting the stiff starter into small pieces and then dropping into a bowl of water for around 20 minutes, then squeezing out the excess water before refreshing as usual. Bathing can help wash away built up impurities and can also help reduce the acidity level. For more details on these two techniques and a few others see the article at this link:

The article is in Italian, but most modern browsers do a great job of translating into English. You can also paste the above link into Google Translate if your browser doesn’t do it automatically.

BTW, here is a link to an entertaining YouTube video of a French baker unbinding his stiff sourdough starter. Remember I mentioned that the pressure builds up? Make sure you watch to the end. :grinning:

Happy Baking!

12

That was exciting :rofl:
(I edited my reply to reflect the goals you explained of binding vs. bathing)

1 Like
13

Now that’s starter with attitude! I’m so glad my Cyril doesn’t act like that!

Leah

14

The first time I tried binding my starter overnight when prepping it to make panettone, I used a light-weight tea towel and by morning, the starter had shredded the tea towel. I have since switched to using a stout towel that I double over for added strength. No more shredding. I have gotten a couple “pops” out of my starter when removing the binding, but never anything as bombastic as the explosion in the video. That said, I make sure to wear some eye protection just in case. :slightly_smiling_face: