Thanks for this Abe. I’m going to try this tomorrow. I assume you are referring to the 20% of a “starter”?
I would like to use the supernatant as the 20% and will have to alter the water value.
@relambert47 does supernatant have the capabilities of leavening a dough, I wouldn’t have thought so, or are you adding sourdough starter as well? I assume you mean adding some supernatant into the levain build. I would think that leaving this as pure sourdough would make for a good experiment to see if we can reproduce the flavour.
Example levain build using the formula above:
- Bread Flour 100g
- Water 125g
- Mature Sourdough Starter 20g (preferably starter which is 125% hydration but a 100% hydration starter will be fine - 10g water + 10g flour)
So you like, for a basic bread, 68% hydration. Let’s type in the numbers…
Overall Formula:
- 500g bread flour
- 340g water
- 8-10g salt
Once your levain build has fully matured then use a high percentage in the dough and re-work the formula. Say you use 225g levain = 100g flour + 125g water then simply re-arrange the final dough to be…
Final Dough:
- 400g bread flour
- 215g water
- 8-10g salt
- 225g levain
- Knead till full gluten formation.
- Bulk Ferment till aerated and puffy.
- Shape and final proof till ready.
- Bake.
P.s. A starter that hasn’t been fed in a while and has been sitting in the refrigerator should be given some TLC before using in the levain for best flavour.
1 Like
Thanks Abe. I’ll get at that tomorrow. I just got a memo that I’ve used too many “replies” for a beginner. Talk soon.
Popped you up a level so you should be free to post.
Hi Abe. The administrator has bumped me up so that I can now respond. After 6 days my ferment was almost complete. I started with 473gm butter milk + 163gm flour. Total 636gm
I collected 163gm supernatant + 429gm “spent” flour total 592gm = approximately 44gm to CO2.
Notice that the supernatant equals the weight of the flour??
I’m going to use the “spent” flour for a starter using you suggestion for the “levain”. Will keep you informed as to how it worked out. I will be using the supernatant to make a regular loaf.
cheers
1 Like
Do you think it’s ready as a starter? Will it have any natural yeast in it?
If not try this…
DAY ONE:
- 156g spent flour
- Whole Rye Flour 68g
- Water, 90°F 85g
Mix the ingredients well, cover with plastic and let stand in a warm area (75° - 80°F) for 24 hours.
Then day two go onto the following feed twice a day 12 hours apart.
DAY TWO:
- 156g Starter (from the previous feed)
- Whole Rye Flour 34g
- White Flour 34g
- Water, 90°F 85g
The white flour should be an unbleached bread flour with 11-12% protein.
Then day three and onwards go onto the following feed twice a day 12 hours apart.
DAY THREE & ONWARDS:
- 156g Starter (from the previous feed)
- White Flour 68g
- Water, 90°F 85g
By about day six you should have a steady strong starter. If not carry on till you do.
Once it’s strong then go onto the levain build.
Based on…
This makes a lovely starter with a strong lactic acid ferment. And starting one off with your spent grains from your buttermilk ferment should really kick it off in the right direction.
Good point. I’m afraid the yeast got killed off. I’ll follow your directions for this. I’m very pleased that we started this info. I’m gaining more info to assists me in this process.
1 Like
Using wholegrain rye flour for the first feed (and for the second feed as well will only do it good i’ll alter the instructions above) should help introduce some yeast and extra bacteria. Whole rye is full of the good stuff to get the starter going. A nice balance of both yeast and bacteria. Then with subsequent feeds start to change it to a white starter. Will take about a week but your buttermilk preferment might make it quicker. Keep us informed.
Change in direction. I’m going to start a sour dough ferment using a portion of the “spent” flour which calculates to be approximately 67% hydration. My reasoning is; Grow a yeast culture alongside the Lactic Acid ferment. I used a small volume of the spent flour in hopes, the LAB culture will ferment alongside the yeast. In the meantime, I’ve got a loaf in the oven with 30% “supernatant” added to the water value.
How does this differ to the plan of action above?
Just a bit different from your 20% starter. At present I don’t have a mature starter as the yeast in what I have is dead.
I’m staying with your calculations when I get a full mature starter with active yeast and hopefully, alongside a LAB culture. I’ll use the 20% starter.
20% starter is the levain build for when you have a mature starter.
This is to make a starter using your spent grains:
Or you can simply follow the Hamelman recipe from scratch!
Here is the info gathered from my Butter Milk Ferment: The batch is whisked smooth injecting air which will add “dissolved” O2 into it. The wild yeast contained within the flour begins to consume the dissolved O2. (Yeast are “facultative” meaning they can survive in aerobic and anaerobic environments.
As the yeast consume the available dissolved O2, it creates a negative pressure within the fermenting vessel. During this phase, the yeast are in a “sort of” lag phase where they are producing more yeast. This is the basic step in beer/wine fermentation where the batch is aerated in order to obtain the volume of yeast required to carry on the ferment. (Those making a sour dough starter could probably use this info)
I tried baking bread with the advice given but when I baked a loaf using the “Spent Flour”, I got the desired flavours I was looking for. I used 25% of the Spent Flour with bread flour and assisted with added yeast. Using the 60% hydration value for this method worked well.
What you have is basically CLAS - Concentrated Lactic Acid Sourdough. CLAS is a very high hydration sourdough ‘starter’ that lacks yeast. It is quick to make and the final bread is leavened with bakers yeast. So one gets the benefit of sourdough + added bakers yeast. The mixture is fermented at temperatures too high for yeast to grow and in an anaerobic environment.
What i’m thinking is perhaps you can convert a recipe to use your spent grains. For example:
Recipe for 1k of flour
DOUGH
- CLAS: 87-145g (30-50g flour, 57-95 ml water)
- Water T 33-35°C: 550ml
- Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
- Salt: 15-20g
- Wheat flour: 950-970g
- Fermentation time:1,5 h
- Fermentation temperature:30-33°C
- Final proof: 45 min at 32°C
- Baking: 30 min at 230°C, with steam
So let’s say you use 145g CLAS = 50g flour + 95g water; which is 190% hydration.
Your spent grains are 67% hydration.
So you need to use 83.5g of your spent grains of which 33.5g is water.
Now all you do is add the difference back into the main dough = 61.5g water.
Let’s rearrange the recipe…
Recipe for 1k of flour
DOUGH
- Spent Grains: 83.5g (50g flour + 33.5g water)*
- Water T 33-35°C: 611.5ml*
- Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
- Salt: 15-20g
- Wheat flour: 950g
- Fermentation time:1,5 h
- Fermentation temperature:30-33°C
- Final proof: 45 min at 32°C
- Baking: 30 min at 230°C, with steam
*of course round up to the nearest whole number
Or alternatively what you could do is follow his method for a refreshment and at the same time alter the hydration. Then once refreshed you don’t need to alter the recipe at all. A refreshment is quick and easy and will be fermented at the recommended temperature and you’ll end up with something closer rather then a substitute.
Thanks Abe. You certainly know your bread! I’ll give it a go later
Thank you @relambert47. You flatter me but there are many others on this site who are far more worthy of this compliment.
I imagine using some of your spent grains to make, and keep, a CLAS would be a good way to use them. Providing they still have live lactic acid bacteria.
My expertise is in fermentation and I’m trying out methods to get a loaf that suits my taste. Your assistance has helped me out greatly. The LAB culture will be viable, if refrigerated, for quite some time. I can always get yeast. The idea of my Butter Milk ferment produces alcohols combined with Lactic Acid and has a wonderful sweet aroma. (Butter Milk Wine Bread?)
I would rather not get into the “CLAS” ferments. Here is a photo of my “Butter Milk Wine Bread” which is very sour and I’m pleased with this process.
1 Like
Stick to what you know and like. If it works and produces a taste what you’re after then that’s all you need. Very nice looking loaf indeed!
Bon Appetit!
Thanks Abe. Coming from you, that is indeed a compliment
cheers
roger