I’m new and been expierimenting making sourdough bread. I have a great rye starter going and trying to develop a basic recipe. I don’t want to make a white bread which I have and it’s easy to work and comes out nice but working with rye in the dough is a problem. I’ve had success with a combination of about 50/50 whole wheat/ white and the only rye coming from the starter.The last batch of dough was 16/32/52 rye/ww/white and approximately 61% hydration. Still tough to work. It’s proofing now and hope to shape and bake in the morning. I’m trying to do freeform loaves. Anyone have any tips?
I made a somewhat simular loaf yesterday with a mixture of 15/70/15 rye/ww/white. It was sourdough leven ed with a bit of yeast water used also. A hydration of 70% was the starting point but more water was added until the dough felt right. I used a banneton for the final proof and that worked well. The loaf turned out nice and tasty. As far as sticky dough goes one just has to learn to deal with it because it comes with bread baking. Try handling with wet or oiled hands,more effective than floured hands, and use quick movements the longer you touch the dough the more sticks. Good luck.
Do you think the 61% hydration is to low. I first tried 68% had trouble so used less water maybe I need more. Opinions?
61% is too low … in my opinion 
FWIW, my 2 cents: you must master the high hydration, almost batter-like dough if you want an artisanal loaf with an airy, open (or open-ish) crumb. I make a lot of rye and Eric’s Artisan Sourdough Rye is one of my favorites but often I am just mixing rye-white whole wheat and a bit of white. Either way, rye heavy doughs tend to be sticky as well as kind of mud-like and you might think they will not make a good loaf.
Back to handling high hydration doughs. Since you say you just started bread baking and have made white bread … go back to white and work with high hydration white. It is easier to see the process and consistency as well as the gluten development. When the gluten is developed adequately, even a batter like dough is more manageable. Use the stretch and fold or mixer to develop the gluten over the bulk or just a long, long bulk. At any rate, use the white bread as your learning tool. You can give it away if you don’t want to eat it.
Then move to whole grains and finally to rye. And, don’t proceed if your starter/levain is not bubbly and active. If you do, you set yourself up for a fail. Another “training wheels” loaf is the no knead sourdough on this site. Use instant yeast if your starter needs more time. It is still good practice for handling dough and learning what dough should look and feel like.
Just as background, I’ve baked traditionally yeasted bread for 43 years. Changed to the “Artisan in 5” with instant yeast about 8 years ago and the last 2.5 have baked with starter (sourdough).
I have one going now with 50/50 WW/W. I made one yesterday following @peevee recipe. It didn’t come out. I believe I rushed my yeast since I’ve been away for a couple weeks and the starter was refrigerated for that time. That coupled with the small amount of yeast in the recipe. The one I’m doing now looks good. How often should I let I rise and knock it down. Another thing I think I mess with it too much. Thanks for the advice. Oh by the way I’m up 68% hydration
No knock down in sourdough. Have you made/read this site’s no knead sourdough? It is a basic recipe. Start with white, then try a mix of white and a whole grain (maybe 70% white), etc. No knock down, a bit of folding, let it rest!!, shape and bake. I don’t have any specific shaping bowls. I use a stretched out foil bread pan, put my final shaped dough on parchment and into that foil pan to rest before the bake. Use the parchment to lift the dough into my dutch oven.
Seriously, regroup and start with the basic and forget everything you know/knew about yeast (dry/instant) dough and go with the recipe directions/video. And there are many youtube videos about shaping high hydration doughs. You can search for “shaping sourdough”, shaping ciabatta (ciabatta is a VERY high hydration dough and there is a good recipe on this site for both white and spelt … start with the white when you are comfy with 70-72% hydration :))
Nearly all fails … and I mean actual fail to rise are due to yeast. If a starter has been refrigerated, you probably need to feed it twice (8 hr intervals) and at room temp, to get it ready to use. It needs to rise 2-3x before falling and you can use the float test to be sure (a small glob of starter should float in water). The small amount in @peevee recipe is not a problem if your starter is active and bubbly and you follow the fermentation guidelines.
Thanks for the advice @anon66425146 . The dough I have going now I’m going to be more gentle with just a few folds over a few hours the try the shaping. It seems to expand quite quickly. I’ll try a few more white bread recipes next. I’m getting addicted to this. I’m brewing tomorrow and plan on adding some saved yeast slurry for flavor only. Any ideas when to add it. Thanks again everyone
OK. Yesterdays bread ended up in a loaf pan came out edible anyway crust was tasty. Crumb a bit moist. Anyway today going with all white. The overnight rise is very bubbly. But staring to slow so I’ll give it another hour then add the rest of the flour and salt. As far as baking temps recipes ate all over the place. I like a nice thick crispy crust
FWIW, I have a feeling you might be rushing the process. Sourdough needs time and how much depends on a lot of things.
And - does your starter pass the float test?
For a thick, crisp crust, I preheat my oven with dutch oven inside to 500 for 15 minutes past when the oven tells me it is at temp. I bake covered at 500 for 20 min, remove cover and bake another 16-18 min lowering temp to 450. You will have to experiment with your oven/conditions but higher heat and in a closed vessel should get you crispy crust. A loaf pan will not.
I’m also guessing you are still struggling with “shaping” a high moisture dough since you baked in a loaf pan. So, here’s the drill that works for me but there are great videos and worth spending some time looking at different techniques - including Eric’s on this site!! Anyway, I use hands and/or bench knife, silicone bowl scrapers and kind of fold the dough onto itself and then round the bottom so you get some tension on the top of the dough. Move gently onto parchment and then into whatever you are using to hold the shape for the 1-1.5 hour rise before baking. Then into a dutch oven or clay baker or onto a stone. DO NOT WORRY, if it spreads at this point … it is going into a very hot oven and if all is good, it will spring.
If you use a stone, you need to introduce steam for the crispest crust. That is the beauty of a closed vessel - traps the steam, makes the crispy crust. When I want a softer crust, I bake on a stone and/or lower baking temps.
If the crumb is moist, it was either not baked to temp 200-205F OR you cut into it too soon. Sourdough and especially whole grain needs to be cooled for several hours. The crumb and flavor develop. Grains like rye can/should sit for 12-24 hours before cutting.
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Ok … thinking more here. You said overnight bubbly … assuming that is a little starter, flour and water … your levain. You are adding rest of flour and salt. Mix it up, let it sit and room temp and then overnight in frig. TOMORROW, let it warm, then shape, rise in a bowl or banneton or whatever for 1-1.5 hour after shaping. Preheat oven and then bake. Slow, slow, slow
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Yes. My process is last night add 8oz of very active starter to 6oz white wheat and 8.25oz H2O. Today extremely bubbly. Not sure what to do next. Waiting for it to calm down. When it does I’ll add another 6.2oz flour and the salt. I usually bake on a stone with mixed results. I baked one in a Dutch oven, that’s the one I threw out. Thanks @anon66425146 for helping me out.
You are making me crazy @brewcat.
Do you have a recipe that states that amount of starter, flour and water for an overnight levain?
I use 1 Tablespoon starter, 75 g flour, 75 g water. It IS active and bubbly next morning. I then mix 600-700 gram flour, 550 g water, 1 T salt into that levain, mix and let it sit all day at room temp. I do some stretch and fold through the day which develops the gluten. Into the frig overnight. I might bring it out, warm, shape, rise and bake next day or I might leave it in the frig another 12-24.
Above is on www.thekitchn by Emma Christensen, search Sourdough. Step by step photos. It was the first I made and success. I also used her method for starter.
Or on this site is No Knead Sourdough. Slightly different method. Videos.
Good luck.
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I halved the King Arthur extra tangy SD bread recipe. I guess I didn’t halved the yeast sorry about that. Ok I’ll add more flour and water get it back up to the double loaf.
I halved the King Arthur extra tangy SD bread recipe. I guess I didn’t halved the yeast sorry about that. Ok I’ll add more flour and water get it back up to the double loaf.
@anon66425146 @peevee looks better and the white flour was easy. The flavor needs to be enhanced with some stout or some more brew yeast slurry. I built the starter from Belgian beer yeast and the first bread from it I could smell and taste that Belgian character. I think the starter has mutated which I’m not surprised same thing happens when repitching beer yeast. Instead of making a new starter each time I’m thinking of just added some yeast slurry for flavor in the second rise. Should I cut down on the starter then?
Glad you got a bread you like. I have no idea re your question.
It’s not really what I’m after but it does have some rye character from the rye starter. But white bread is not what I want. Im looking to make bread with stone ground wheat so I’ll add a little to the next batch.
Well everyone seemed to like this bread and like @anon66425146 said it gets better with age. But I have something in my head that I want to make I’m just not sure what it is. So I will start with this recipe and just change one thing at a time. I make my own beer recipes and hope to do the same with my bread. Any advice on do’s and don’ts ?