Thank you @Abe, the last bake was too dry. I increased the hydration rate to 0.8 this time and added 20-30 ml of water at a time until the dough felt right.
It was tacky, but not sticky until the time of shaping. After the 1st hour of fermentation, the dough was very flexible/extendable.
I had about 1/6 of the combine, einkorn and buckwheat of the total flour.
I’ve accepted that einkorn and buckwheat will not give me fluffy bread.
Thank you for your feedback,
A
Thoughts crossing my mind. Just thinking out loud here…
Without having read the exact procedure followed, so excuse me if you have done this, i’d skip any autolyse and and the salt in straight away.
I’d also be tempted to try increasing the prefermented flour then after mixing and developing the gluten to go straight into shaping and final proofing. Baking in a loaf pan. I’m curious how the crumb might improve.
Perhaps an autolyse and a longer bulk ferment is just too much for the types of flours and some of them being spouted too. I’d also try and catch the levain build when it’s not too acidic.
What was your final recipe for this bake? From starter/levain build to final dough and method?
Hi Abe,
I did what you suggested.
There was no autolyse with the sprouted flour and salt added in the beginning with the dough mix. The non-sprouted flour had an autolyse of ~4 hours, ~10% levain, maturity of levain was good. The only issue is the hydration rate, I have a hard time determining the exact rate used because I added water a few times and lost track of the number of times I added. I also added an egg and counted this as fluid. Attached is another shot of the inner crumb.
Thank you for helping me tackling this,
A
We loved the flavor of einkorn and buckwheat!
I’d probably try pre-fermenting 30% of the flour then adding all the ingredients from the start when forming the dough. Knead till full gluten formation, shape into a prepared loaf pan, final proof till it crests the top then bake. See what kind of crumb this method produces.
Am I correct in reading that this bake was 85% kamut flour and spelt flour and 15% buckwheat flour and einkorn flour? Or was the einkorn and buckwheat component whole berries/groats?
Why 30% of the flour? You mean the non-sprouted flour, right? Pre-ferment for how long?
I also bake rolls for breakfast, I can go with 100% sprouted flour for the rolls. The difference is that the rolls don’t have inclusions.
I took part of the dough for the rolls and baked in a loaf pan. I probably didn’t have enough final rise and no scoring, but otherwise, the loaf pan looks good, feels decent.
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Well since we’re switching to one rise I think it best to pre-ferment more of the flour. I’m also thinking now to go for a low hydration pre-ferment which should add more strength.
It’s difficult to advise without knowing the exact recipe but yes… use the flour you normally use for the starter. If bread flour then try 60% hydration. If it’s all wholegrain then try 65% hydration for the pre-ferment. For example…
- 500g wholegrain flour (including sprouted and add-ins)
- 400g water
- 10g salt
Pre-ferment 150g of the total flour with 98g water.
- 350g flour
- 302g water
- 10g salt
- 248g stiff levain
Mix the dough and knead till full gluten formation. Shape into loaf pan etc.
I have roughly 650g of flour, with 500g are combined of Kamut and Spelt (50/50), of which I would say ~70% is unsprouted and 30% came from sprouted. The rest of the flour came from chopped einkorn and buckwheat as well as flour of these grains. I also added a small amount of sprouted Red Fife flour, mainly because I need to use up the sprouted Red Fife. With autolyse of ~4 hours for the unsprouted flour, 100% of unsprouted flour was autolyse.
I normally don’t follow a recipe rigidly. I grind the grains, weigh the flour and calculate the amount of water needed depending on the hydration rate I wanted.
I also added soaked flaxseeds and sunflower seeds.
The bulk fermentation was on the counter at 22 Celsius temperature for 2.5 hours, bench rest, and final proof in the fridge
Abe,
How much starter would you use for the stiff levain? 10%? Assuming that I will build the stiff levain in the morning about 10-12 hours before mixing the final dough?
@Fermentada the followings are the steps of what I did
I scooped Kamut and Spelt (unsprouted) grains, processed with my Mockmill around 13:00 and used 80% hydration for this. Around 18:00 when the levain was ready, I processed a mixture of sprouted grains and mixed everything together, including the inclusions. Added some water at this stage. After the first rest I added some more water and I don’t remember how many times I added. The last bake the bread was too dry so I wanted to make sure I have good hydration.
Bulk fermented for ~2.5 hours with S&F every 30".
Final products has decent oven spring, which led me to believe that my hydration wasn’t too high? The bread is much better than last time, not so dry. Once I sliced into my pan loaf, which is the dough of the rolls, I will know whether the crumb of the boule is due to the inclusions.
I am trying to process Abe’s method and probably will try it next time
Thank you all,
A
First of all to make things simpler why not take some starter and convert it to 65% hydration. No specific feed, yet. Just get a strong 65% hydration going. Once mature then you could either do an overnightnight build for a late morning bake or if you start early enough then an early morning build for an evening bake.
Suggested stiff levain build:
- Flour 100%
- Water 65%
- Mature stiff starter 20%
About 10-12 hours give or take.
Abe,
Thank you but I don’t want to go back to too low of a hydration rate. The last bake I used the hydration rate from one of the recipes of Kamut and/or Spelt, I went with 70% (?) and I believe I added some water. I had really dry bread. I think part of the problem was the inclusion of sprouted grains. We threw most of the bread away, fortunately the rolls saved me.
I am going to process and may try your suggestion with 30% preferment.
I have the basic understanding of the grains’ characteristics, it is the sprouted grains that I am trying to learn to work with. I am trying to see how much sprouted grains can be included and still get good crumb.
Thank you,
A
That was not a suggestion for the final dough @anh. It was for the stiff levain build.
30% prefermented flour at 65% hydration but the final dough will be however hydrated you want it to be.
Sorry for being a non participant in this discussion guys. I have my hands full setting up a COVID-19 vaccine clinic at our site and it has been much more work than I first expected. @anh you’re getting great advice and help from Melissa and Abe so I’ll leave you to them.
Thank you @Abe
Got it!
Stiff levain at 65% hydration and the final dough can be at 85%. With 30% flour pre-fermented, wouldn’t this be too high of pre-fermented for an overnight build, especially with sprouted grains in the mix?
@Benito, thank you for participating
@Fermentada, for my next bake, I will try both your and Abe, I will scale down both recipes.
The bread is good, with the exception of the gummy texture
Thank you all again,
A
Yes correct @anh. The levain is 65% hydration using 20% starter. Recommended ferment time is 8-10 hours give or take - for the levain. This is where you pre-ferment 30% of the total flour.
The final dough will be whatever hydration you choose, the levain will consist of 30% of the total flour and the ferment time will be a couple of hours give or take.
If you give me your recipe I’ll rework it for you.
Abe,
I am calculating the percentages now
I will preferment 90g of the 300g flour:
This can be a mixture of Spelt, Kamut, or Turkey Red at 65% hydration (58 ml water). For final dough:
60g Kamut
80g Spelt
30g Sprouted Red Fife
20g sprouted Einkorn
20g sprouted Buckwheat
I will use 85% hydration for final dough, which will be 179 ml
Will try a loaf pan for this
What do you think?
Let me see…
Total Formula:
- 300g flour
- 255g water
- 6g salt
This gives the final hydration of 85%. Now to figure out the levain build. 30% of 300g = 90g flour. So the levain should be made of 90g from the total flour + 59g from the total water = 65% hydration.
Levain Build:
- 82g flour
- 51g water
- 16g starter @ 100% hydration (8g water + 8g flour)
I’ve left the starter at 100% hydration for ease. The starter is 20% of the flour and should take around 8-10 hours give or take. Ready when well risen and has a dome. Once mature…
Final Dough…
- 210g flour (as above)
- 196g water
- 6g salt
- 149g mature stiff levain
Mix into a dough and knead till full gluten formation. Shape into breadpan and bake when it crests the top.
Perhaps start the levain build early morning so you can keep an eye on it. This is a 1lb loaf so make sure you use a 1lb loaf pan.
Will do