Several versions were made with King Arthur bread flour. The most recent version use Breadtopia bread flour with 50 gr of home-milled Hard White berries. The loaf sat for 5 hours before I cut it. The crust was crisp, the inside damp.
How about you take a break with the Tartine recipe, for now, and keep it very simple?
Overall Recipe:
- 500g bread flour
- 300g water (+ extra if needed)
- 10g salt
- 100g mature starter
Starter Build:
- 50g bread flour
- 50g water
- 1 teaspoon starter
Overnight; use the next morning when very bubbly and has a nice aroma.
Method:
- Autolyse flour, water and starter for 30 minutes.
- Add the salt and combine.
- Knead the dough till full gluten formation (add more water at this stage if the dough needs it).
- Cover and leave to rise till doubled.
- Shape and final proof till ready (about 1.5 - 2 hours).
- Bake.
Let’s see if we can get a non gummy bread first and then go back to the Tartine Country Bread.
Sure, I’ll give it a try.
When you say “knead the bread till full gluten formation” do you mean 4 stretch and folds and 2 coil folds with 25 minutes between each?
I mean the type of kneading you can take out your frustration on 
This will allow you to better judge when the dough has doubled. And we’re taking out all the frills, for now, because the main aim is a non gummy bread.
I can do that!
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Followed your instructions Abe, the bread was 211 when I removed it from the cloche. After 5 hours I cut into it, damp inside! The loaf looks lovely inside and out with a crisp crust.
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You could try one of these suggestions, or a combination of the two:
- After removing lid from cloche part way through the bake, remove bread from cloche and finish the bake on the rack.
- When the bake is complete, turn off oven, remove bread from cloche and place on rack, prop oven door open with a wooden spoon. You could try cooling it completely this way, or maybe start with a shorter amount of time.
Something to experiment with!
Loaf looks superb, Joan. Excellent oven spring and crumb. Crust looks perfect too. From the photo I can’t discern any dampness. I’m at a loss because from what i see i’d be very happy with that. How’s the taste?
How about baking the loaf for 5 minutes longer? But rest assured we’ve crossed under-fermented off the list as a cause (at least for this loaf). The quest continues…
How about the same recipe… 60% final hydration including the starter and don’t add any extra water. Just as an experiment. Plus, once you think it’s baked then leave in for 5 minutes longer (as long as the crust isn’t burning).
Overall Recipe:
- 500g bread flour
- 280g water
- 10g salt
- 100g mature starter
Starter Build:
- 50g bread flour
- 50g water
- 1 teaspoon starter
Overnight; use the next morning when very bubbly and has a nice aroma.
Method:
- Autolyse flour, water and starter for 30 minutes.
- Add the salt and combine.
- Knead the dough till full gluten formation (add more water at this stage if the dough needs it).
- Cover and leave to rise till doubled.
- Shape and final proof till ready (about 1.5 - 2 hours).
- Bake + 5 minutes extra after you think it’s done.
I did do it earlier with 290 grams, and it still was damp. I can try 280 grams. I’ve also tried leaving it in the oven 5 more minutes with the top off. Same perplexing result. All the damp bread tastes good once it’s halved and the halves are allowed to dry out.
When you cut the loaf is there any dampness or residue left on the knife?
No residue on knife but it’s difficult to halve because the dampness makes the loaf sort of contract as I saw on it. Once the halves have dried out, after a few hours, slices are easy to cut.
I’m wondering if it’s dampness or just because it’s very fresh out the oven. It could also be the effect of a strong bread flour and sourdough which can give it a different texture to “regular” bread which has a soft crumb.
How about also a flour between 11-12% protein (no higher) and skipping the autolyse. Form the dough all at once and knead till full gluten formation. Allow to double… etc.
It’s not “fresh out of the oven” since I let the bread stand (this time for 5 hours) before cutting it. I suspect it may be hydration, although I’ve never had problems with non-sourdoughs, my financiers stuck to the pan until I used less water than the recipe called for.
If there is no residue on the knife and it comes out dry then perhaps what you’re experiencing is not dampness but a typical sourdough type crumb. Sourdough tends to have a different affect on the final crumb than non sourdough loaves. Gives the crumb a different texture. So four things to tweak…
1: A lower protein flour. 11-12%, no more!
2: Drop the final hydration to 60%.
3: No autolyse.
4: De-gas the dough before shaping.
Part of the problem is that words like “damp” are subjective, and we’re not seeing your bread firsthand. It might well be that any of us would cut into it your loaf and see nothing wrong with it, and say “oh that’s moist, but to be expected.”
I expect my sourdough loaves to be what I’d describe as “moist” in the center for the first 24 hours or so. Nothing wrong with them, but they do have a quality of moistness in the center that is maybe a little different from a typical non-sourdough bread, or any bread you’re likely to buy in a store. After, maybe 24 hours (without doing anything to dry the halves or keep them seperate) it becomes more “normal”.
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Of course it’s subjective but I think my sourdough is more than “moist” it’s downright “damp”. And it needs to be halved (with some difficulty) before it can be eaten with pleasure. I’ve got a lot of dried-out sourdough halves to eat before I try again. I’ve tried several different recipes, including the one from the Breadtopia sourdough book, all with the same damn damp outcome!
In that case, I’d pose this question to the sourdough experts here: is it possible something weird has happened to Joan’s starter culture, where the beasties are causing some unusual effect?
Another experiment you could try, Joan, is to replace the starter in the recipe with an equal amount of biga or poolish (made to the same hydration as the starter you would use), maybe fermenting it extra long, and see if your bread comes out with the same dampness.
The only thing I can think of is to try a different preferment and see if that alters anything. Perhaps a stiff dough like starter to bring out different qualities then compare.
Overnight:
- 50g bread flour
- 28g water
- 10g starter @ 100% hydration
This will give you a 60% hydration mature starter.
Early Morning Day Of Baking:
- 40g bread flour
- 24g water
- 40g starter from above
Ready to use in 3-4 hours when puffed up and domed. Twice fed and not too acidic.
Use 100g of this in the following recipe…
Recipe:
- 500g bread flour
- 300g water
- 10g salt
- 100g mature stiff starter
Same method as above.
Eric, I’ve used a levain of 50 gr bread flour, 50 gr water, 1 tsp starter, and alternatively 100 grams of levain (composed of 80 gr half whole wheat-half bread flour, 80 gr water). Each ended up with damp (but very pretty-looking) sourdough. If you give me a recipe for a biga or polish to substitute for the levain, I’ll give it a try when I finish the vast quantities of sourdough bread I have on hand.