This is the comment thread for the Breadtopia blog post originally published here:
If you do not see the “Reply” button, you will need to log in or register an account. Please click the blue “Log In” button in the upper right of the page. 
I enjoy the flavor of this flour, but have only used it in recipes that call for about 30% whole wheat flour because of the exceptionally high protein content. However, after seeing your open crumb, especially the one using 100% whole wheat, I’ll have to add it to my list to try. I can achieve an open crumb with high extraction flour, but not as much with my whole wheat breads, so I’m eager to try sifting out the bran and adding it back later. Very nicely done, Melissa.
Richard
Yes, I bet you’ll get an even more open crumb with the sift-soak. I don’t believe the bran in this wheat has much if any bitterness so I think you’ll enjoy the 100% whole grain recipe.
This is my favorite wheat, and I’m happy to see Breadtopia carry it now. Though most people describe it as having an aroma of baking spice, to my nose it is what I would describe as floral. It’s scent is surprisingly persistent.
I like to mix it 50 / 50 with turkey red, both to dillute the aroma and to loosen it up. I find it to be a very strong wheat, too tight actually for my taste, and adding another flour to increase the extensibility is helpful. If doing the 50 / 50 mix, I think I would use AP flour rather than bread flour. I should give the caveat that my R d’B is from Barton Springs Mill, so it’s possible Breadtopia’s is a little different.
I have been baking with this for about a year (Barton Springs Mills is my source like Ericjs). This makes an exceptional rye sourdough. For a very large loaf I use approximately 50 grams starter, 150 grams rye, 200 Rouge and 300 white bread flour plus salt. Don’t forget the caraway seeds! It is a slow riser unless you are in the south like I am. In these hot summer days I put it in the fridge over night for the bulk fermentation stage and bake the next morning. Adjust the proportions until you get the flavor you like…I have also tried mixing in a little spelt in place of some of the white flour that adds some richness to the final loaf.
Since I had a bag of your burgundy wheat berries as well as a Stilton looking for a vehicle to sit upon, I decided to make your 100% formula as written.
Two questions came to my mind as I was constructing the dough.
Why did you choose to make the bread without a pre-ferment, just 75g starter?
My whole grain starter is a mongrel that’s been fed from a number of red wheats during its lifetime. I’ve now created a red burgundy starter with a small quantity of this munge and all the rest red burgundy. Why did you opt to use a starter of, I assume, equally mutt-like genealogy rather than going for a red burgundy starter?
They come down to the same question in the end, of course. Next time I make it I’ll try with a red burgundy pre-ferment. But I’m curious why you made the decisions you did.
Those are interesting observations. I enjoyed the aromas at full strength but I can also see wanting to do a mix of wheat varieties. Based on this amazing crumb with 66% rouge and 33% hard white on Breadtopia’s rouge de bordeaux product page, I’d be inclined to agree that pairing it with a different whole grain flour could open things a bit. Or maybe I simply shaped and proofed my 100% rouge loaf differently lol, it’s always hard to say.
Edited to add: I’m curious what hydration you go with on the 50:50 rouge/turkey.
That sounds delicious. I bet the rouge de bordeaux adds a lot to the overall flavor and aroma.
It sounds like you’ve got a strong starter and some very warm weather for a first rise in the refrigerator with 8% starter! Good strategies.
I hope you love the stilton-rouge combination as much as I did.
For the first test bake, I did use a bunch of mongrel starter (funny term 
) that had ripened a few days prior and been refrigerated since. This was done purely to not waste food, since I was re-feeding the starters as part of a continuation of this starter microbiome experiment. After mixing those doughs, I realized I messed up. I wanted to be able to gauge the gluten strength of 100% rouge and using 75g rye starter was not helpful to that end. I over-proofed those doughs anyway, so I happily re-did the bakes.
In that second round, I did actually use rouge de bordeaux flour in a pre-ferment/overnight levain build. Here’s the description:
For my second bake of these formulas, I used ripe starter in case the discard I’d used in the first two doughs had been too acidic and caused gluten breakdown. I did a 1:10:10 starter build the night before. 8g rye starter mixed with 80g water and 80g whole grain rouge de bordeaux flour to have a little more than 150g ripe starter for two doughs the next morning. This feeding ratio was to ensure that the starter didn’t ripen in the summer heat while I was sleeping.
My decisions tend to be an interplay of exactly what happened with these rouge bakes
I go to great lengths to avoid having sourdough discard, but I also very much want sound experiments that test wheat varieties or other aspects of baking.
Edited to add: that excerpted description mentions my concern that the old-ish starter in the first bake might have been proteolytic, but I was also concerned that the 37.5g rye flour in the doughs might be relevant to the crumb and oven spring (about 7-8% of the total flour).
I like it 100% too, just not all the time.
Re: hydration, this is hard for me to answer, as I don’t really pay much attention to the numbers, I’m more of a an adjust-by-feel guy and and I’m constantly playing around with things. I’ve also moved away from straight wheat loaves (in the end I just like rye breads and durum breads better) but the base recipe that I use when I do a wheat bread is a ciabatta that’s about 95% hydration but I back off on the water a bit (due to these heirloom flours, and often tempering). I think where I end up is somewhere in the 85-90 range…maybe 88% based on some numbers from my notes, but take that with a grain of salt.
BTW even with a “straight” wheat loaf I always include a few percentages of rye. Honestly I think almost any all-wheat flour recipe is better with a little rye, and I consider it must.
Adjust-by-feel is a great way to bake imo, and makes a lot of sense to me because I might be using a different amount of starter for each bake because of timing needs. That’s my main issue at least 
It sounds like you get a lot of water into the rouge and turkey dough though. Especially if you’ve got rye in there too. I’ll experiment with going higher next time.
Rye and durum are pretty amazing. I can see why you’d focus on them. For me, when I try to play the game of “What three wheats would you pick if you could only have three?” I just can’t pick yet…maybe in another five years 
I’m fairly new at sourdough breads and to fresh milling my own grains. I was delighted to find this recipe and to discover that so far, it is by far, the best one I’ve tried!
That’s great to hear!
Depending on what whole wheats I have available in my freezer (currently Hard White and Turkey Red), I’ve been using them interchangeably in my basic sourdough bread recipe, usually combined with high protein bread flour. Can Rouge de Bordeaux be used in the same manner? I’m thinking of getting some in a future grain order.
Blessings,
Leah
Hi Leah,
Yes, I think you could use rouge de bordeaux as you use the turkey red. I bet you’ll enjoy the flavor.
-Melissa
Thanks, Melissa! That’s what I wanted to know! I’ve got a standard, basic sourdough recipe I use for my “everyday” bread. Sometimes I bake it with 100% bread flour. Sometimes I do add some home-milled whole wheat to it. I love my standard basic recipe. It’s 100% my baking comfort level. I was hoping I could try the Rouge de Bordeaux in that recipe. Sounds like I can! YAY!
Blessings,
Leah
Hi Melissa, thank you for this recipe. I’ve been borrowing a friend’s grain mill and am now saving up for my own. I made this recipe just as directed and it was wonderful! I also have some Yecora Rojo berries and was wondering how interchangeable they are with the Rouge de Bordeaux? I read through your recipe for Yecora Rojo loaves on this site, and that had a different process (laminating, coil folds), and a higher hydration ratio (84% instead of this recipe’s 79%). I’m totally new to freshly milled flour - are the hard reds generally interchangeable, or is it best to follow tested recipes for the various kinds? Thanks so much. Your recipes here are becoming my go-to choices for all things sourdough!
What a wonderful way to try out fresh milled flour!
Yecora rojo is quite strong and so it can take all that water and not feel goopy, so I’d go for approximately the hydration in the recipe, doesn’t have to be exact.
The gluten development actions though, are really up to you: coil fold, stretch and fold, lamination – they’ll all work. Just be aware with lamination that it creates large air bubbles and they may fool you into thinking your dough is more fermented than it actually is. A couple of coil folds after lamination will calm this down.
Here’s a kind of menu of gluten development you can do (with videos):
Thank you! This is most helpful. I’ve been baking sourdough for a few years now and find that there is happily always more to learn.
This loaf is so delicious. I’m sure the enhanced taste of my loaves as of late has been due to home milling my flour (love my new Mock mill 100). Followed Melissa’s 50/50 recipe, but reduced the water to 325g, and did three rounds of stretch and folds, and one coil fold at 30 minute intervals. The dough was a little dry. My kitchen was 64 degrees yesterday, so I didn’t let the flour cool down after milling and I microwaved the water to take the chill out. I lost track of time, but think it was about a six hour bulk ferment to increase the size by about 40%. I shaped it immediately, inserted into a banetton, and left it in the fridge for about 16 hours (again, lost track of time!), and baked it in the morning. I think the worry and fretting I put into each loaf I make is turning into fun, and I learn more each time. I got decent oven spring with this loaf and the kind of semi-open crumb I prefer. To me this rouge de Bordeaux loaf has great depth of flavor - I just love it! 
