Observations about Heirloom/Ancient Wheat

@tstavely I experimented today with adding salt during the autolyse stage to see if it would help dough made with 100% Turkey Red hold together better. This recipe I used claims that its keys to success are the extended autolyse and the use of of a food processor for kneading.

The only departure I made from the instructions was to add all of the salt at the autolyse stage. The dough had more strength than usual at the end of the autolyse, which I took as a good sign. Unfortunately, my food processor picked today to die. It never got up to speed and the motor died before it finished the 75-seconds of kneading. Still, by the time it conked out, the dough was very close to the description in the recipe and photos, so I had high hopes. I gave it a quick fold to help make up some of the difference. However, I’m sorry to report that by the end of the bulk ferment, the dough was well-aerated, but runny and unstructured.

I’m not sure if the dough eventually broke down because the salt in the autolyse could only stave off an enzyme attack for so long or if it was because the food processor died before the gluten was fully developed. I suspect the former, but I’m also now wondering if this variety of wheat simply doesn’t absorb as much water as modern wheats. When my new food processor comes, I’ll experiment with other variables (shorter autolyse, reduced hydration) and will again report back. The finished bread looks okay and the taste is exceptional, but the crumb doesn’t stand up to the weight of sandwich fillings. I might just need a different recipe than the two I’ve been using.

Wow, thanks for the full report. The photo of your dough after bulk fermentation looks like an extreme example of the kind of problem that brought me to this discussion thread. Instead of a gluten network forming a coherent membrane there are kind of reluctant strings. Your crumb shot looks just great, but if the crumb falls to pieces around a slice of tomato or something then it’s definitely not right.

I made some linguine tonight from 3/4 durum and 1/4 Turkey Red, both sifted to about a 90% extraction. Probably thanks to the durum, the pasta strips held together, though with something of a wholegrain mouthfeel.

Tomorrow I’ll make a maslin loaf, half Turkey Red sifted to 90% extraction and half whole grain rye. I’ve made this bread with other wheat a bunch of times. I’m planning just a 30-minute or one hour autolyse with cold water and no salt. My plan is to have 70% hydration, half way between 65% for the wheat and 75% for the rye. I mixed the leaven to ferment for 16 hours at room temp, but because of the high temperature where I am (Northfield, Mass.) it’s going in the refrigerator when I go to bed in a little while.

@anothergirl The maslin loaf I mentioned in my previous post baked last night and came out pretty well. Because whole rye made up half of the flour, I couldn’t tell much about how the gluten was setting up, though there were signs that it was more ropy than like sheets. The bread baked with reasonable oven spring, as illustrated in the photograph.

While the crumb is dense, it is springy and not crumbly.

When it came to it, I didn’t autolyse any flour. Instead, I added the salt to the flour, made a well in it for the sourdough (straight out of the refrigerator, 10% of the total flour at 100% hydration) and cold-from-the-tap well water (70% hydration, total water to total flour) and mixed everything. Taste-wise the wheat and rye flavors balance nicely.

This bread is similar enough to other maslin I have baked that my feeling about Turkey Red wheat is that I’ll just keep using it, trying to suppress enzyme activity and hoping for the best. Another time I’ll probably up the dough hydration from 70% to 75% for a more open crumb.

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@tstavely What a pretty loaf! I love a good rye bread. It takes me back to my childhood.

Enjoy!
Leah

@tstavely - Oh wow, that bread looks like it would be right up my alley. I’m a rye fan from way back, but I’ve never made a bread like that before. I’m inspired to try, though!

Regarding the turkey red issues, I am still actively soliciting advice and continuing to experiment. If I have any breakthroughs, I’ll post here. Good luck!

OK, thanks. Bake well.

Abe - I’m finally getting around to making your einkorn recipe. It’s doing its bulk fermentation in the proofer as I write this. It has risen some, but I’m having a hard time knowing when it’s ready as the top looked sort of craggy from the start. I don’t see much difference in the texture appearance. Any other tips on what I should look for? Thanks!

How long has it been in the proofer for?

It’ll rise a lot and won’t resemble a dough anymore. Closer to a sponge.

Any chance of posting a photo?

Yesterday it was in the proofer at 72F for about 2 hours, then in the fridge overnight, then today for 7 hours so far, the first two hours at 90F to get up to temp, then down to 72F. The rough top surface looks pretty much as it did after I mixed it, although it definitely has risen.

I just realized there could be some confusion. The bread I’m making is the 100% einkorn one that you wrote up.

So it’s the recipe close to the top of the page. 100% Einkorn, 70% hydration, 2% salt and 10% starter.

Well I would expect 10% starter to take around 8-10 hours. Been a while since I’ve made it but certainly an all night ferment.

You did 2 hours, then in the fridge, after which 7 hours more.

It’s looking good. Certainly fermenting well and has risen. I’d expect the dough to atleast double and if you peek under the surface it’ll be sponge like. Doesn’t look that far out to be honest.

Once it’s ready it’ll be too sticky to handle. A very soft no knead consistency dough. Just portion it out into a prepared loaf pan with a spatula or spoon and smooth over. It’ll have gone from a dough to resembling more of a batter bread. This is more to do with the gluten than over fermenting.

Looks quite spongy already. Wait till it at least doubles. Because it was refrigerated early and you’re still within 8-10 hours room temperature time then give it a bit longer.

I would have mixed the dough up before bed and left it at room temperature overnight.

I will note for next time to do the long ferment overnight on the counter. Now seeing how slow it is, that makes sense. It is now close to looking double, so I will get ready to put it in the greased loaf pan.

If I understand correctly, the loaf pan rise will be until a few holes appear. Holes like I currently see on the side of my bowl? Or do you mean bubbles? Bubbles is more like what I would see on a final proof. Again, not sure exactly what to look for!

So when you shape now treat it like a rye bread. Smooth the top over to correct any irregularities. It’ll rise, crest the top and have a dome. Once you begin to see on top of the loaf tiny holes just beginning to appear (you’re only looking for one or two) then it’s ready to bake in a preheated oven. Don’t allow too many to appear or it’ll over proof. If you wish you can sprinkle flour over the dough (a thin even layer) and once it looks like the roads on a map it’s ready.

I have a hunch my loaf pan is bigger than normal: 10.5" x 5.5" x 3" high. The dough only fills half the pan so I sort of doubt it’s going to crest the top and have a dome, but we’ll see! I will watch for the first few bubbles. I floured it so will also watch for the roads on the map! Thanks so much, and I hope to have a nice result to report.

No problem. If the loaf pan is too big then it’ll be a smaller (in height) loaf. But I’m sure it’ll have a good crumb and will be tasty. If you like it you can iron out any mistakes made this time. As long as it’s tastes good that’s the main thing.

Looking forward to results.

Well, it tastes great! It sort of looks like it was baked in a Pullman with a lid, except there was no lid! Pretty flat. But the crumb is decent and the flavor is great. Einhorn is really nice. I did not use steam and wonder if I should have. Maybe next time I’ll use parchment and my oblong clay baker. I also might try scaling it up a little. That hole in the middle is not a normal crack, it’s where I stuck the thermometer. The crust was quite brittle! Thanks again for your guidance, Abe.

Nice crumb. I think you could have gotten a good dome on the loaf if using the right amount of dough for the loaf pan. Looks delicious though and now you can see how einkorn should be handled or not as the case may be. Here is another recipe…

@tstavely, I’ve been doing some research and pursuing advice on our disintegrating Turkey Red doughs. Most of what I learned is what I think we already knew, which is that fresh milled Turkey — and other fresh milled flour — tends to develop more quickly than commercially milled flours. A number of techniques for balancing the fermentation rates were very generously shared with me and I want to pay that forward on this forum in case it may benefit someone here. I’ll go over the things I tried as well as my observations in case you are able to adapt some of them for your purposes, which are very different from mine.

1. Shorter autolyse with salt. No longer than 1 hour (I keep mine to 45 minutes) with salt added to slow the enzymatic processes. One caution I was given was that If the formula uses a blend of fresh and commercially milled flours, you shouldn’t autolyse them together. Either don’t autolyse the commercial flour at all or do it separately.

In my case, I was making 100% WW and wanted to soften the bran, so a shorter autolyse wasn’t going to get me where I wanted to go. To get around this, I ended up sifting out the “bran” and soaking it separately for about 2½ hours, while the flour and salt autolysed for only 45 minutes.

Keeping track of multiple soakers and autolyses might be more trouble than it’s worth, so that’s something to consider.

2. Reduce or eliminate sugars as they will accelerate fermentation. I tried this and it helped slow things down; however, I felt that it had too much of a negative impact on the flavor. Fortunately, the combination of other measures taken to slow down fermentation seemed to be sufficient, so I was able to get away without cutting the sugar.

3. Reduce the amount of yeast. Reducing the yeast by half helped enormously. I understand that you are leavening with sourdough, so this won’t necessarily apply to you. I’ll probably readjust the amount come winter.

4. Be extra careful not to tear any gluten strands. While bakers should always be careful about this, one thought I heard was that home milled or heritage flours might be less able than commercially milled flours to “recover” from incidental damage to the gluten network. Make sure the dough is extensible before doing any kneading, stretch and folds, or the like. (If the dough is not sufficiently extensible at the end of the autolyse phase, add a bit a water, wait, then try again.) Coils folds may be preferable to stretch & folds.

These techniques have significantly shortened the overall timeframe and helped my 100% Turkey whole wheat dough hold together considerably better. (The autolyse has been reduced to a third of the original time. The bulk phase is about the same as the time specified (maybe a little faster) in the original recipe, and the proof now takes about half the time specified in the recipe. These times will probably change again with the coming of colder weather.) The bottom line is that I watch the dough carefully and if it seems to be developing too quickly, I move it along to the next step. I try to stay in front of it and not fall behind, if that makes sense. I don’t know if one of these fast-moving doughs would hold up through an extended retardation — but if I tried it, I’d get it in the fridge early in the process and make sure the fridge was good and cold.

Hopefully you will find something here to help with your Turkey Red doughs. That said, I’ve made so much of this 100% WW sandwich bread in the past few weeks that I don’t care if I have any more for a while, haha! I’ll probably be sticking to ciabattas and sourdoughs for a while :slight_smile: .

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Wow! @anothergirl. Great information. It all makes sense. I’ve been separating the bran and soaking it with or without sourdough to digest it some. That helps some. I’m also trying not to handle the dough much and to use coil folds mostly when I do. Right now I have a batch of 100% whole wheat dough fermenting for 24 hours per a recipe in Lutz Geissler’s “Bread Baking to Perfection with Sourdough” (rough translation of the German title). The protocol is akin to a recipe for “lazy bread” here the Breadtopia site. There are to be only two stretch and folds, which I’ll do coilwize as gently as I am able. I reduced his 2.2% salt back to about 1.9, still above my usual 1.7 or 1.8. According to your info I might better have stayed with his percentage. Meanwhile, you’re being a big help here. I am grateful.

@tstavely, Thank you, but I suspect you are way ahead of me on this stuff! As you noted early on, its mainly a matter of controlling the fermentation rate and of syncing it up with everything else that’s going on. One book that I recently bought (Flour Lab by Adam Leonti) notes that Turkey is best suited to open crumb breads - another bit of potentially useful information.

Happy baking!