Why is my SD enriched bread a lot more sour than my FWS SD bread? Same starter, same feeding schedule. It seems like it should be the other way around. Thanks!
It should be the other way around unless something you’re enriching it with is turning sour.
Interesting! Maybe I should skip the cold proof?
In my FWS bread I have had to work at it to get any sour flavor at all. So far over a year, I have made 3 enriched doughs: rolls, donuts and cinnamon rolls. Two of the 3, very sour, the other one got more sour in day two. Thanks
For anyone to venture an educated guess you’ll need to post the recipes.
FWS SD bread vs An enriched recipe.
Everything else being equal enriched doughs should be less sour.
Here is an enriched bread I have made that was sour.
https://zestysouthindiankitchen.com/wprm_print/17944
Basic FWS bread for me would be Tartine country loaf. Always delicious but not very sour.
Thanks so much!
Well first of all straight off the bat Tartine Country loaf is not meant to be sour. So while all things being equal an enriched sourdough should be “sweeter” than a normal sourdough not every sourdough has to be sour at all. And Tartine Country loaf is a recipe formulated to be mild. There will be exceptions to the rule as there are so may things to consider.
I’ll take a look at the link. Thank you.
Okay… so i’ve had a look. The percentage of starter in that link you’ve given me is a higher percentage plus it’s fermented for longer than a Tartine Country loaf. Now my next guess is just that… a guess! It’s got a lot of milk in it. Milk plus acid makes buttermilk (or an equivalent to buttermilk) which might add to the tangy taste.
Abe, the milk is suspect for me also. I will work with that and will see what happens. THANK YOU SO MUCH for talking this out with me as it has been bugging me for awaile! Happy Holidays!
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My pleasure, Tallahassee. Hope you find your answer. Keep experimenting!
Happy Holidays.
I will! I have made several Breadtopia lean breads and they have always turned out great! Thanks again!
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Does your enriched bread take a lot longer to rise? Mine usually does and this can make it more sour I believe.
I got this from watching a Karl video:
Homofermentative starter – produces only lactic acid (flavor is dairy tartness like cheese and yogurt)
- warmer environment (30°C to 35°C / 86°F to 95°F)
- wetter (liquid)
- short fermentation between feedings (feed before prime/ripe)
- less bran (use sifted flour – bread or all-purpose)
Heterofermentative starter – produces CO2 and acetic acids (flavor is a sharp sour)
- cooler environment (20°C to 25°C / 68°F to 77°F)
- dryer (stiff)
- long fermentation between feedings (feed after prime/ripe)
- more bran (use unsifted flour – whole wheat, rye)
If I were making enriched baked product like rolls, donuts and cinnamon rolls I would be using a wet, AP flour starter and fermenting warm for a lactic acid bias, and to reduce both the fermentation time and sourness.
Interesting! The warm info I follow, almost out of desperate necessity – a really high fat dough won’t ferment at all or will be excruciatingly slow if it’s kept cool in my experience.
But the hydration of the starter is counter to what I’ve learned from panettone making 
@djd418 any thoughts on the starter info of stiff = acetic favoring? Is that independent of yeast boosting through low hydration and warm feeds?
Pannetone is made with Lievito Madre. They are stiff starters but have special maintenance to ensure leavening power. They are fed often and when used in Pannetone are built up in stages so its not enriched all at once. Each stage will be allowed to mature before further enrichment. They arent sour. If the pH is too low they’ll be given a bath to wash the acidity away. They’re also fed every 3-4 hours. So it isnt just any stiff starter.
From what we all have read, 100% hydration starters tend to preferentially produce lactic acid (yogurty flavor) and stiff starters tend to favor producing acetic acid (vinegar twang). That said, temperature can modulate these hydration-related effects. Most of us have noticed that 100% hydration starters kept in the fridge in between feedings will give you progressively more of a sour vinegar twang over time. That is because that environment favors heterofermentative LAB and it will produce more acetic acid in addition to the lactic acid. And stiff starters kept at higher temperatures (I keep mine at 80F-86F) tend to favor homofermentative LAB which gives you the creamier lactic acid twang. Here is a link to a nice discussion on this topic: The Science of Sourdough.
So maintaining the starter with a combination of frequent feedings and higher temperature proofing can give you a mellower flavor. And the frequent feedings makes starter more active which can speed up the proofing process, which again, gives the starter/dough less time to produce acid.
That is my experience from making naturally leavened panettone. I feed my panettone starter every 4 hrs for 2 days prior to mixing my first dough. Then I tie it up in a stout towel like a sausage overnight so I don’t have to get up every 4 hrs. As the pressure builds, it tends to inhibit fermentation so the starter doesn’t get too acidic. In the morning I carefully remove the binding (it is under pressure and can explode; here is a video example: Exploding Lievito Madre), cut off the outer rind, cut it into slices and give it a bath for 15 minutes in room temp water with a pinch of sugar. This process keeps my starter at a pH of 4.0-4.5. And with the frequent feedings, the starter is very active and triples in volume in 4hrs. The resulting panettone has no discernable sourdough “twang”.
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Funny video 
I would love to keep a LM but it takes a lot more care than i’m able to give. The temperature control, the timed feeds, the wrapping and storing to washing it. Just not something i’m able to do right now. But I admire you for doing so.
Thanks for this discussion. Abe, we had a discussion about my enriched dough being a lot more sour than my non enriched dough. It sounds like I should ferment my enriched dough at a higher temperature and skip the cold proof, agree? I use a liquid starter for both, equal flour and water. Thanks!
I think you should try a panettone kind of approach. Preferment a high proportion of flour and build it up in two stages, then add the rest of the flour, water and add-ins in the final dough stage. All done at room temperature. For example…
Overall Recipe:
- 500g flour
- 300g water
- 10g salt
- 1 egg
- 20g sugar
- 20g butter
Might be a terrible recipe but it will be fine for our example.
First starter feed overnight (converting into a stiff starter)
- 20g starter (10g water + 10g flour)
- 45g water
- 100g flour
Total flour = 110g
Total water = 55g
Hydration = 50%
Allow that to mature.
Second Build:
- 165g first build (55g water + 110g flour)
- 83g water
- 165g flour
Allow that to double. About 4 hours. Warm temperature.
Final Dough:
- 496g second build (138g water + 275g flour)
- 225g flour
- 162g water
- 10g salt
- 1 egg
- 20g sugar
- 20g butter
Should not be sour. And with a large amount pre-fermented it should be strong with the final dough taking quicker.
Something along these lines.