I’m still a tad confused as to why your dough didn’t seem to rise at all and you said it was cold I thought you meant the place where you live.
No, I had the fermentation process, both bulk and final in the fridge, and the temperature of the fridge is 42 Fahrenheit degree. However, with a higher “inoculation” percentage, the 200g of flour I used to use, the dough doubled overnight.
I use the same hydration rate: 90%
I mixed a levain earlier today and I used a bit more flour this time for the levain (deducting from the total flour), I am using 80g instead of 60g, and 20g of starter instead of 10g. So this is a ratio of 1:4, will see how it goes.
I started my levain late last night, I mixed the dough around 8am, I performed 4x S & F, and then bulk fermentation from the morning until now, lifeless. I will report back after baking,
What I don’t understand is that you’re doing both the bulk ferment and final proof in the fridge to prevent any rise and then you say there’s no rise.
I thought that if I want to have long bulk fermentation and/or long final proof, I have to keep the dough in the fridge, no?
I used to have the long bulk fermentation with the higher percent of flour inoculated (450g levain) in the fridge and it used to rise to the rim, more than double. However, I couldn’t do long final proof.
Are you implying that I should not have the bulk and/or final proof should not be in the fridge?
I think I am going back to the higher inoculation (higher % of levain), long bulk fermentation and short final proof.
I now understand how one can have long final proof.
a
Whether you have a higher or lower % of starter/levain as long as the dough has been fermented to the optimal level for both the bulk ferment and final proof then it’s fine. I find that at least one stage should be done at room temperature if you wish to go down that route. If you want a long bulk ferment at room temperature then lower the starter/levain percentage. If you want a long bulk ferment in the fridge then up the starter/levain percentage. If you want a long final proof in the fridge then either up the starter/levain and have a shorter bulk ferment or do both a long room temperature bulk ferment by lowering the starter/levain and a long cold final poof.
But whatever the case just make sure each stage is done well.
In this case then I was doing fine with my original higher levain, long bulk fermentation in the fridge, but with this, I cannot have long final proof. If I have long final proof then I cannot get oven spring.
Infact, I just read a comment from Melissa to another post, that popping the banneton into the freezer for twenty minutes before score and into the oven helps with oven spring.
Why do you need a long final proof if you’ve already had a long bulk ferment in the fridge? And why can’t you go for a longer bulk ferment with less starter at room temperature then a final proof in the fridge?
I find breads tastier when fermented at a warmer temperature and use the fridge mainly for convenience.
I used to have the bulk fermentation at room temperature, but I got complaint that the bread was too sour. This is why I started my fridge fermentation. However, I used to have a higher % of levain. I am going to try to use a 10% levain, and bulk fermentation and room temperature, then final proof in the fridge. I am going to bake with dough straight from the fridge.
So here is my plan:
Overnight bulk fermentation at room temperature
After bench rest and shape, final proof in the fridge
Bake cold dough from fridge
I read that to get good oven spring, one can pop the banneton in the freezer for about 20 minutes before baking.
What do you think?
BTW,
The piece of dough that I save the other day is final showing signs of rising. After three days?
Thank you for your time and efforts to educate me
A
I am realizing what I need to correct:
- I used to have a 50% levain and long bulk fermentation in the fridge
- I dropped the levain down to 10%, and continue the long fridge fermentation, but not long enough, even a day later, the dough hasn’t risen at all
- I am now going to do a 10% levain and long bulk fermentation at room temperature
- After bulk fermentation, I will shape and do final proof in the fridge
I will bake with cold dough from the fridge
I will test this
a
I think your starter is favouring the bacteria instead of yeasts and its why the resulting bread is more tangy and your dough not behaving as it should do.
To get a less tangy starter feed it at room temperature more often. Giving your starter a few healthy feeds at room temperature will also build up the yeast population. I don’t think using the fridge will get around the tangy taste. You should be able to manipulate the characteristics of your bread by how you maintain your starter and how its used within the dough.
What kind of flours do you like to use and is there anything you won’t use?
I normally feed the starter (rye) and let it rise, then back to the fridge. However, the levain is all at RT.
I am going to try long fermentation at RT and final proof in the fridge.
Thank you,
a
As for flour, I normally use a mixture of red hard spring or winter wheat, buckwheat, and rye. All are home milled here with the Mockmill Lino 200.
The amount of buckwheat + rye, more than doubled that of the wheat. I understand that the grains I choose can lead to more dense, less open crumbs bread.
My starter is 100% rye, but my levain is normally wheat.
I don’t use white all purpose flour, I don’t have the need to expand the waist line
Two things I was going to suggest.
1: using some durum flour. Try as you might you won’t get any tang out of this flour. It has a natural sweetness to it. I’m sure if you use it in a mix there won’t be the exact same effect but adding a % of durum flour in sure will make the resulting loaf less tangy. More often it is white flour (or yellow to be exact) but if you don’t mind that can be an option. I believe one can get whole grain durum flour but that is not as widely available.
2: using a double fed sweet levain. So you do the levain build as normal but then you feed it again and use when its young (so not as mature as the first build) and this takes a lot of the tang away. The resulting bread is more mellow.
Actually, I forgot to mention durum, but I do have a bit of durum or white soft wheat, I am trying to counter the buckwheat and rye’s elasticity.
I buy the durum grain and mill with other grains. I also have flaxseeds, always in the mixture for health benefits.
It is warm here today, I started the levain an hour ago, I am going to mix and let it sit on the counter tonight.
So what if I add to the levain, for example, I started with 10%, when it start to get sign of life, I will feed it a bit more, is this what you mean by young levain? If so, how much should I feed it? Another 10% of the levain?
Since you don’t mind including durum then that is a very good option. I’m doing a 100% durum sourdough now. Just done a starter build.
A starter and levain will go through stages from young to mature - sweet to tangy. The rule of thumb when learning to bake with sourdough is to use when mature. Which means peaked. This can result in a tangy bread. The longer you leave it the more sour it gets. But you can also catch it when less tangy or young.
The double fed sweet levain by Forkish is a recipe where the levain is fed twice and at each stage it is left to mature for only 3-4 hours. Just enough time to pass the float test but not enough time to get too tangy. After the second feed the levain is used in the dough.
Look up “double fed sweet levain by forkish” to get an idea of thus principle. Perhaps we can come up with an idea using this technique.
So Forkish is to have 270g of levain per loaf, but doesn’t say how much flour in “a loaf”. I am going to feed to double the levain. This time I am going to feed it durum.
Thank you for sharing
a
In terms of s & f, I have seen anywhere between 30 minutes to 1 hour, what do you normally do?