We frequently get questions about whether or not a crumb shows evidence of underproofing or overproofing. Having baked plenty of examples of both I thought I would share how I look at the baked bread to decide if it is under or over.
This first loaf has some pretty classic signs of underproofing. Looking at the crumb, I find it helpful to ignore the big holes first and have a look at the crumb. Is the crumb very tight and dense or is the crumb actually quite nice and open. Generally if it is very tight and dense, it is more likely to be underproofed than just right or overproofed. Next look at the large holes. Are these large holes actually big long tunnels through the bread? Are they generally in the upper half of the bread and not immediately under the crust? In underproofed breads the big holes have a tendency to be large tunnels in the upper half of the bread and not ones immediately under the crust. Next, sometimes there are clues before you even slice the loaf. I unfortunately didn’t get the best photos of the outside of this loaf to demonstrate this, but you might see an exaggerated oven spring and ear. In fact the center of the bread might even be quite pointy as it is pushed upwards by the expansion of those huge tunnels in the bread while baking.
This next loaf has signs of overproofing. Let’s start again with the crumb and ignore any larger holes. The crumb in this example isn’t particularly tight or dense despite it being 100% whole grain, so it isn’t likely underproofed. So it could be just fine or overproofed. Now look for the larger holes. In this case the larger holes are just under the crust and if you look closely you’ll see some broken gluten strands. These broken gluten strand happen because as the dough overproofs, the gluten becomes weaker as the pH falls activating the proteolytic enzymes. Then as the gases expand in the oven when baking the weakened gluten fails and smaller alveoli coalesce to become larger ones. Next let’s look at the outside of the loaf. The weakened gluten affects the outward appearance of the loaf. Again rather than expanding upwards, the loaf spreads as the gases expand as the gluten breaks down so we often get a flattened loaf. The ear is often unable to form properly so you might get only a small ear at best. In the area of the score you’ll often a collapsed area rather than a crust that stands proud.
What do you look for to decide if a loaf is over or under?
Nice write-up Benny. Good examples of both. My view is the same as yours and I look for all the signs you have mentioned. Over proofed/fermented will not result in a tall loaf and an under proofed/fermented loaf will often have good oven spring but will have an undeveloped crumb.
So a tall loaf won’t be over proofed/fermented while a flat loaf will often be a signed of over proofed/fermented but will still have a more developed crumb.
Over fermenting will also have a thicker more dull crust that won’t caramelise properly due to more sugars being consumed. A perfectly fermented dough should have a thin bright well caramelised crust.
Of course I didn’t bring up hydration and its effects that can further confound the diagnosis. A dough which is under hydrated may help a overfermented bread not be as flat. A dough that is over hydration may cause flattening of a dough that is underfermented. Then the variables of gluten development and dough structure can further confuse things…
Yes Benny. There are many factors. These observations we have discussed should take into account that everything else was done properly. The control ‘experiment’ of it being over or under fermented has to take into account that nothing else is off from hydration to shaping and even scoring correctly.
This is super helpful thread. I can’t resist asking now, how would you diagnose this crumb?
It was a fast, room temp sourdough, refined flour, minimal gluten development in the form of two in-air laminations, no bench rest. The ear was on the sad side.
Ask for someone to diagnose the ferment from a crumb and I’m sure you’ll always get some seeing over and others seeing under. I’ve seen a lot of people posting perfect breads asking what’s wrong with it and since the question is leading the issues with the bread and how to fix it comes flooding in.
That looks great to me Melissa. The larger holes are down to minimal handling and shaping, which the resulting ear might have something to do with it as well, but that is a success. Nice distribution of air pockets, a thin caramelised crust, a good oven spring considering the minimal handling. Can’t see anything wrong with that lovely loaf.
Cool - it makes sense that the large holes are from the lack of pre-shape etc. Small ear too. Those were my baguette cause-effect findings too. I’m guessing the lateral squishing of holes about 3/4" from the base of the bread are due to the weight of the dough pressing down on it. I wonder if there’s a solution to that, while at the same time, I don’t truly mind. Definitely enjoying the loaf
I’m assuming larger air pockets will suffer more from being squashed by the weight of the dough. Flipping the dough for the bake should also help minimise this but I guess you did. If baking baguettes or ciabatta where they are proofed in a cloche then don’t forget to flip.
Also when we speak of over or under fermented I think like hydration there will be a range. Keep within it and it’ll be fine. Is a few minutes more or less going to make a big difference? Will a few percent difference in hydration mean it’s too dry or too wet? I’m thinking we’ll only begin to see a difference when it’s significant.
I also kind of know before cutting into it by the heaviness of the baked loaf and if it’s taking an age to cool down if it’s under fermented.
I have to agree, it does look great to me too. The larger alveoli are well distributed and don’t have the usual pattern seen in underfermented loaves. Of course what you think of it will depend on what you were going for, you might say oh I wanted really open crumb in which case you’d want to ferment longer. Or you might have wanted a more even crumb in which case you’d probably want to pat the dough down more when shaping to reduce the larger alveoli.
Thanks for weighing in @Benito You’re thinking more bulk fermentation or more final proof? Or more of both?
Someday I need to do the experiment of comparing the results of two doughs with the same total fermentation time and temp, but one dough with more time before shaping and one dough with more time after.
Kinda like seeing if the Commutative Law of addition works in baking a+b=b+a …?
@Fermentada Again I guess it comes down to what you wish to achieve. If you want a more even crumb then extend bulk so that you pat down the larger alveoli during shaping and then a shorter bench proof before cold retard. Or do you want a wilder crumb then extend the final proof and be more gentle during shaping so you don’t redistribute the gases in the dough and reduce the larger alveoli.
I came across your post and this is EXTREMELY HELPFUL! Thank you.
I had asked a forum online on FB what caused the large air pockets.
This was the process. I’ve used a similar method with a plain SD loaf and it turned out perfect in terms of even open crumb. A few difference were -
I only autolysed the flour and water with the plain loaf for 45mins/1hour
I did BF at 79F for 6.5hours for the plain loaf
I pre shaped the plain loaf so I feel I was able to degass and pop large air bubbles better.
Do you think that the large air pockets in the Turmeric SD was due to lack of pre shaping?
I had some people reply ‘way over proofed’ and then other saying I didn’t bulk ferment long enough so I’m so confused haha.
My understanding is that if it was way overproofed I wouldn’t get the rise like I did.
Recipe:
500g BF
360g water
100g Starter
10g salt
5g turmeric which i incorporated with salt.
Autolyse Bread flour and water for 4 hours.
Mixed in starter left to rest for 30 mins.
Mixed in salt and turmeric, rested for 30 mins.
Proceeded with stretch and fold 5 times at 30 mins interval.
Kept in a proofer at 80F for 6.5hours.
I usually preshape but was limited on time so Iwent straight into shaping, left on counter for 30 mins to stitch. Then placed in fridge for 18 hours. For the remaining 30 mins i did place in the freezer because i was planning to do some detailed scoring but ended up just doing one score.
Baked at 500F in double cast iron for 20mins lid on then 20 mins lid off at 430F.
I’d say it is underfermented, this in regards to the turmeric loaf. Look at the crumb, avoiding the large alveoli first, the crumb is on the denser side of things. Then looking at the large alveoli, they appear to be tunnel like to my eye.
The second loaf looks pretty good, perhaps still a bit underfermented overall, but much better in fermentation compared with the turmeric loaf.
Benny
Thank you so much @Benito that is extremely helpful information.
There were people in the forum suggesting I look at charts on sourdough journey (for BF times based on temps) and suggesting bulk ferment for 3-4 hours which I feel is way too short since over tried that in the past and the loaf turned out like this. Much tighter. I’ve also tried those charts and I haven’t seen much success. So many variables to take into consideration other than just time and temp.
Again, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with me!! This only helps me improve
Will do @Benito!! Still so new at this so it’s great finding really talented and knowledgeable people like you that are willing to share feedback. Just came across your Instagram and followed you. Hope you have a wonderful vacay!!
I’d say a tad under but not much. As far as crumb goes you could try higher hydration.
1: under… larger holes dispersed with a tighter crumb elsewhere but still a goid rise often looking good on the outside till it’s cut into.
2: over… thick crust, doesn’t caramelise well, oven spring is poor.
P.s. i differentiate between proofing and fermenting. When i talk of over proofing I’ll mean final proofing but not necessarily over fermented. But i know many use it interchangeably and i gather you do too.
That’s helpful thank you!! Right now I’m doing 100grams starters 350grams water and 500 unbleached bread flour! Would you suggest upping the water amount a little for higher hydration?
