Total Fermentation, Test and The Question

First of all, I want to emphasize that my process works for me and I am 100% in favor of anyone doing whatever process works for them. So if what I wrote came across in any way as a criticism or a put-down or anything like that, I did not mean it that way at all.

Second, alls I’m sayin’ is after having done some baking for a while and coming to a certain basic understanding of the sourdough fermentation lifecycle, I can bake pretty decent bread pretty much every time, but I really don’t know (happily) a lot of the stuff that you wrote about up there. I have heard of falling numbers and ash content and other grain stats like that, but I have no idea what those things actually mean in practice or how they may affect a given grain’s performance.

From experience, I do know that einkorn, even though it has “numbers” that say it is “high in protein,” has almost no workable gluten at all so, all by itself, it barely rises because there is no elasticity so no tension to hold in the bubbles that the sourdough beasties are kindly blowing in their process of consuming sugars from the flour. I learned this from baking a couple loaves of einkorn bread. So now if I want to bake a loaf of einkorn bread, I don’t expect it to rise a lot. And in fact, if I wanted to make an einkorn loaf, I’d make it in a bread pan rather than trying to do a freeform, artisan style loaf.

I also know from experience that grain changes, sometimes quite a lot, from one batch to another. So when I buy “Red Fife” (which I usually like baking with) from Breadtopia over and over again over the years, I don’t expect it to be the same grain every time. It varies from year to year, season to season; I assume also from farmer to farmer. It tends to have a certain character that I like, but it varies a lot within a range.

Those variations don’t throw me off because when I look at, smell, and feel the dough as it is bulk fermenting, I’m doing it without any hard and fast expectations. On Thursday evening I almost always mix up a bowl of dough for something like the country loaf that you mentioned, and leave it to bulk proof overnight. When I wake up on Friday morning, I take a look, take a sniff, do a couple stretch and folds. Sometimes the dough looks exactly like it did when I left it on the counter the evening before - like nothing at all is happening. Sometimes it’s already poofy and 1.5x expanded with a slight sour smell. Sometimes the bulk proof is “done” by 9am, sometimes not till 3pm. Either way is fine by me because I’m just gonna shape it, put it into a proofing basket, and then pop it in the fridge until early Saturday morning when I’ll bake it.

I think that the only thing I really have to get “right” is ending the bulk proof after the dough has expanded enough (1.5x? 2x?, maybe 2.5x?), but well before it hits its peak and starts contracting. How do I know how much is “enough”? That’s where the experience comes in and I don’t know how to communicate it other than to say, with grains like the ones I am talking about that have gluten content and performance in the range of a hard red wheat, an expansion of somewhere between 1.5X to 2.5X is probably in the ballpark (though I’ve also had success with bulk proofing up to 3x). And for beginners I’d say that as long as the dough has become poofy / aerated, then it’s probably better to err on the side of stopping the bulk proof too early than too late. If you stop it early and leave a lot of food in the dough, then oven spring is going to give you a nice loaf even if the crumb doesn’t end up being as open as it might be if you nail the timing better.

Then over time, that nailing the timing better, is the art part. You get to know how temperature and hydration and starter activity level and different grain performance all interact with each other so you can get a sense of what to expect timing-wise and make adjustments. And by the way, for me, all those variables are qualitative and not quantitative. When I say grain performance I’m totally not talking about falling numbers. When I say hydration, I mostly don’t really know what the actual % is - I’m just talking about how wet the dough SEEMS. I’m probably gauging the temperature by whether I am wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt.

I can tell you that when I was starting out I over-complicated things a lot. Baking bread has become a more enjoyable craft as I have let it become simpler. And my bread has gotten better, too.

I appreciate your comments and at some point will be able to do the same as you.

[quote=“homebreadbaker, post:6, topic:12272”]
I’m probably gauging the temperature by whether I am wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt.
[/quote] hahaha cute!!!

I spoke of FN of a particular grain and it is important, frankly numbers that most berry sellers rarely have. If my pea brain serves me right the grain is starting to degrade similar to an autolyse without the salt. Same process is happening. TYPICALLY a large scale bakery uses flour with a FN of 250-280 seconds for baking bread. An FN of over 350 indicates a flour should be supplemented with a form of amylolytic enzyme or a malted grain flour. Pick up a package of processed bread flour and you will find the addition.

What happens as the FN increases then the amylase level increases which makes a greater formation of dextrins. This results in a sticky dough that is not only difficult to handle but will have slicing issues as well.

This quote came from an organic miller, Cook Natural Products " Our organic flours are un-malted, so they have high falling numbers, generally in excess of four hundred. Malted bread flours have falling numbers of: 250-290. Generally the baker will find that fermentation progresses more rapidly as falling numbers become lower."

Improper storage at home can also raise the FN number as the grain absorbs moisture from the air, which is why most berry suppliers suggest desiccants and oxygen removers (reduce oxidation). Personally I re-package all my purchased grain in vacuumed bags with desiccants. If a person does not store their grain properly what worked in January might not work in June the same way.

I really appreciate Dennis for starting this, as I have been struggling with the final proof.
I use a mixture of grains just to help with the gluten development process. I normally don’t have problem with the bulk proof. However, every single time I have a lengthy final proof, the bread doesn’t rise. After bulk proof, if I just bench rest, shape, and then bake within 1.5 hours, then the bread rises nicely.
I have read that the final proof is for flavor of the bread, and I have been struggling to learn this.
I wish the postings I read about the final proof has pictures to show when the dough is ready with final proof.
Attached are recently baked read WITHOUT the long final proof.
If you can help pin point, I really appreciate your help. I stick with 90% hydration, and home milled flour.
Thank you all,
a

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Attached are more pictures
a

If you have successfully implemented long final proofing and have pictures, please share.
I would love to see how/what the dough looks like when it is ready
Thank you,
a

These had an 8 hr refrigerator final proof. There are before and after photos toward the end of the blog post. If you scan thru the Breadtopia blog posts, I usually include those types of photos, though I don’t always do long cold final proofs.

Thank you Melissa,
I am going to try final proof in the fridge after short rest on the counter and watch the dough appearance for readiness.
a

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When you say you have a problem with a long final proof do you mean if you retard the dough in the fridge?

Can you also give your recipe and method for a full picture of what’s going on.

I think a big question here is… What are you looking for at the bulk ferment stage. Once you have the answer to this then a lot falls into place. The answer comes with practice but its not a certain amount of time passing nor is it “necessarily” doubling.

What you’re looking for is gluten formation and a good matrix of bubbles. You will notice a change in the feel of the dough and the skin becomes smooth.

In a 100% whole wheat dough you might only be aiming for 30% risen. It depends on the flour, the hydration etc.

Hello Abe,
I don’t have an exact recipe, I change the grains different time. I use home milled flour, my hydration rate is ~90%, if I add dried fruit, I increase the hydration rate to ~95%. Below are the steps:
prepare levain (~ 6 hours in advance of mixing)
mill flour
mix flour with water
fold the levain into the prepared flour
first fold/mix within 20 minutes
then coil fold about 3 more times at ~30 minutes intervals
bulk fermentation overnight (often longer than 9 hours)

If I remove the fermented dough, bench rest, shape and bake within 1.5 hours, I get nice oven spring.

However, I read that long final proof improve the flavor. But, after shaping if I do the final proof in the fridge for 12-24 hours, then remove and bake within 1.5 hours, the bread doesn’t rise well. I suspect over proofing, but I am trying to see whether I can achieve long final proof with oven spring for the sake of better flavor.
I saw Melissa’s long final proof loaves and they look gorgeous, but I struggle and don’t know how to get there. I understand different grains and hydration levels have an impact on this.
However, I should be able to get some what oven spring, right?
For example, some of Eric’s videos, he has his dough sit overnight on the counter and it proofs so nice. I know my house is much warmer and I cannot do that, but I am not leaving the dough on the counter.
I really appreciate your help!
a

That may be my problem, I normally bulk ferment the dough overnight, this may be too long?

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I think you’re over doing it. Melissa’s recipe has 75g starter to 500g flour. This 15% starter. If the bulk ferment is done to an optimal level then the 8 hour final proof in the fridge is fine. More often than not it can be baked straight from the fridge too.

Now if you have a high percentage of starter, fermenting it to the outer limits, shaping and final proofing for up to 24 hours then your dough could very well be over proofed.

How much starter do you use? What temperature is the dough fermenting at?

I think you should keep it simple and don’t keep changing the recipe till you’ve perfected it.

Hi Abe,
I really appreciate your valuable time and help here.
Of all the years I have been baking, I feel like a beginner, why, I cannot mix my starter with water and then add flour. I have to make a levain for the dough to rise, my starter is 100% hydration with rye (home mill).
For each baking I use 50g starter, add to 200g water and 200g fresh home mill flour.
I let this sit for about 6 hours, when the levain is bubbly, then I mix with the flour.
For some reason, when I mix my starter with water and then mix the flour, I don’t get a good rise. I normally feed the starter the day before.
Thank you for your help again,
a

No problem Anh.

I’m just kneading a low hydration starter in preparation for a recipe I’m working on. I’ll leave you with this topic I posted last week…

What is a levain?

This is the issue. Yes your starter % is small but you’ve prefermented a large proportion of the flour and then gone into a long bulk ferment.

I think taking a strep back, ironing out these issues will help you to move forward. Perhaps another recipe would be ideal to practice on.

Dennis and Melissa,
Does this dough look ready to you?

I think I would give the dough in the photo a little longer because the shaping seams are still visible. It’s hard to say without seeing a “before” photo : )

(I’m guessing that the timing you mention above is probably overproofing the dough: 12-24 hours in the refrigerator + a few more at room temp.)

Yes, I am over proofing

Thank you

I’m a poor one to ask in this case because you are refrigerating the dough but from my novice eye it does not look fermented fully. As I now know what to look for using two different grains bulked slightly above room temp., I would let it go further BUT Melissa and Abe seem to be more on top of the retardation issue.

I started a whole grain this morning at 7am and the levain is still not ready at 6pm so it looks like I will be retarding the mix tonight. I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed but I won’t be retarding at the temps Melissa uses.

I did the ‘intuitive thing’ for about 5 years. While I was, on occasion, able to get a good loaf of bread, I was unable to get consistent results. Not being a baker by nature or by training, and, being in my 70’s, and, having limited energy, I decided to learn not only from my own mistakes but also from the mistakes of others. Therefore, I watched many youtubes and that many of those people were making my same mistakes. I found it interesting that I could actually know from the beginning of the video how the bread would come out! However, after watching many different videos, I began to see a pattern and realized that all 'less than perfect loaves" (loaves that I would eat without feeling deprived of store-bought bread) usually failed in two ways: the starter was not ‘ripe’ or the water content did not take into account the amount of water in the starter. I would be willing to bet that every one of you who makes his/ her bread ‘intuitively’ discovered what constitutes are ‘ripe’ starter (without ever calling it that) and learned the ‘hard’ way (feel, error, etc) the amount of total hydration needed for your flour. Since I was training other friends to make sourdough bread, I had to pay attention to small details and find words to explain what I was doing. Not every one understands the subtle difference between sticky and tacky dough. Not everyone knows that your finished loaf will be drier than your dough! Not everyone knows that if your dough is too sticky, your bread will be moister (and mold faster) or that an easily worked dough (not sticky or tacky) will result in a dry, crumbly loaf of bread. But…once someone has succeeded in making a good tasting loaf (neither too wet or too dry), s/he knows what to ‘see’, ‘feel’. etc when making the dough. I realize that some people can make bread without such aids (as I can knit an ‘idea’ without needing someone to guide me). However, I will always be grateful to those willing to let me know their mistakes so that, today, 12 years later, I can make a boule, a sandwich loaf, and a dozen sandwich thins that I look forward to eating. Yes, it took me years of experimentation. But, as my grandma taught me decades ago, the JOURNEY is the DESTINATION. While my journey may have seemed complicated, it certainly has been memorable! :grinning: Maybe I’ll be able to make God a sandwich thin on the other side. :innocent:

If the bet were to include both of the things you mentioned, then I’m afraid you would lose that bet in my case. I totally agree about the hydration part - that’s definitely a big part of what I call “listening to the dough”. And getting the hydration right-ish is one of the main reasons that I think developing dough intuition is the only real way to get consistently good results unless you want to limit yourself to rigidly controlled inputs to which you can apply a formula of some kind.

It’s specifically because flours vary so extremely in their responses to mixing with water that it seems important to me to develop a feeling sense of what the right range of hydration is without recourse to a formula or fixed hydration percentage.

With regard to ripeness of starter, I must part ways with you. Although I think I can tell how ripe (or not) a starter is from years of doing sourdough more conventionally than I do now, the way I bake bread these days has come to 100% ignore all of that. I honestly just leave my very small amount of starter unfed for a couple months at a time in a jar in the refrigerator and then just mix a tiny amount - less than half a teaspoon - of it in with my flour and water when I am mixing up the dough for a loaf.

Then I pay attention to the dough, which I now think of as a fairly large batch of starter, and wait for it to get “ripe” - aka to be done with its bulk fermentation period. Using such a small amount of cold, unfed starter, it takes a pretty long time for my dough to start rising at all. For my preferred timing, that means that I am usually mixing the dough up in the early evening and leaving it to bulk proof at room temperature overnight. Then I start keeping an eye on it in the morning, usually do a couple rounds of stretching and folding in the morning hours so I can feel it and smell it and see how it’s doing and monitor its progress. I find that the length of the bulk fermentation varies a lot. The usual range is between about 14 hours on the low end up to sometimes 20 or 22 hours on the high end. Temperature has a lot to do with that, but also what flour(s) I am baking bread with, how recently I happen to have fed the starter, and probably a bazillion other invisible things that I don’t need to worry about as long as I pay attention to the dough and have a feeling for what I want it to look / feel / smell like when it’s time to stop bulk proofing it.

Anyway, that’s my process and the consistency of what I would call very good bread has become pleasantly boring.