Total Fermentation, Test and The Question

After reading several posts from a couple of sites regarding “how long should I bulk ferment or final proof” and communicating with @Silvertwist on the subject I decided to give a test a go. I wanted to attempt and close a question most of us “novices” have on this subject and maybe provide a tool to assist others. I know learning these basic functions can take time but a tool to close the gap might help in understanding the process and taking out some of the guesswork.

I forgot to note in my write-up that I used 100% organic white berries from Breadtopia that I have made exceptional bread with BUT… in my test this flour when fully fermented it did not bulk up to double in size. A test that some bakers use is placing a small quantity of the dough in a small graduated container to ferment separate from the mass bulking. If the recipe I was using said to wait until the dough was double in size it would have been over-proofed as I have done so many times in the past.

Appreciate any comments from any of you that are more experienced on this subject.

1 Like

Dennis, Congratulations, your experiment was very similar to what I did on several occasions until I mastered my Total Hydration for the flour I am using and the Optimal amount of Levain to insure that the dough would be fully fermented in 4 hours. As you stated, it took me 12 years to figure it all out. Giving you a ‘jumpstart’ is my pleasure. To answer your question…I usually let the dough ferment for most of the fermenting time…leaving only one hour of that time for ‘after shaping’. I just made a loaf yesterday. It was 75% whole grain Einkorn and 25% whole grain sonoran. After incorporating all the ingredients, I let it rest for 20 min. and then did a set of 3 stretch and folds (in the bowl). Since I know my dough will be completely fermented in 4 hours, and, knowing that I will need 1 hour for final proofing, I let the dough ferment for 3 hours before shaping. I then gently shaped and put into my cast iron loaf pan. After letting it ferment for another hour, I noted the ‘holes’ on the top. I covered with a 2nd cast iron loaf pan (to form a cloche) and baked. My bread is gorgeous and its crumb is much like yours. It tastes fantastic.

I am endlessly fascinated with the complications and attempted formularizations that people want to layer onto sourdough bread baking. I guess you could come up with some kind of formula, “tool”, or rote procedure to follow for timing so that you could do it without actually paying any attention to the dough and knowing or (better) understanding what you are paying attention to, but I think that for such a method to be consistently successful you’d really have to carefully control a lot of variables, which for me feels like baking in a straight-jacket and makes for unacceptable tedium.

And so my own “burning question” about this effort is why would you want to do all that?

It seems far simpler and far, far more enjoyable to me to just bake a few loaves and pay attention to the dough - how it looks, how it smells, how it feels in your hand as it is fermenting - until you get a feeling for how the process unfolds. If you have a basic understanding of the sourdough life cycle, ignore 99% of the stuff you find with the google, and just really pay attention to the dough, I don’t think it should take very long to get an intuitive sense of how the fermentation process unfolds.

And then you can bake sourdough bread with all kinds of flours, in all kinds of temperatures, at all kinds of altitudes, in all kinds of kitchens, in all the different seasons, with all kinds of additional or substituted ingredients, etc. etc. and you’ll be able to make whatever timing adjustments are necessary by just directly observing the dough. It takes a little experience, but it’s not really very hard.

I know that some people really like to immerse themselves in a lot of complications. And if that’s what makes it fun for you, then more power to you. For me personally, if I had to own a proofing box and carefully measure and control the temperature of the water I mix with the flour in order to make a loaf of bread, then I’d be buying bread from a bakery and spending my time on other crafts.

2 Likes

To each their own, however 2 things: like @homebreadbaker, I enjoy the intuitive process vs the formulization: temp/time/exact complication which would send me to the bakery, also.

The 2nd thing, is that I would hate for a new baker to turn away from the baking process by thinking that it was all too complicated. In my experience, it is a very simple process that is enhanced by working WITH the dough and how it is reacting. I won’t repeat Paul: his 3rd and 4th paragraphs are succinct.

I was hoping you would respond to this thread as I expected your comments AND I think they are important. I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on most points in past threads. I agree with a past statement you made that recipes are only a starting point. This of course is where the novice gets into trouble as there are so many variables and items a person must learn from experience.

I don’t like to have to go through all these gyrations to bake a loaf of home milled whole grain sourdough or with regular yeast either. And I don’t think any person needs to do this AFTER they have learned what their dough (grain) is going to do. Problem is most of us have never gone to a baking school and so our learning process comes from reading articles, recipes and attempting to glean information from others that are kind enough to answer questions. As a novice bread baker I still am not comfortable with telling if a dough has finished bulk and in some cases final proof. Why because of the grains I am attempting to use and my inexperience.

I can point to 3 different recipes that I actually have right in front of me. One as an example is for a Sourdough Einkorn. This novice prints the recipe and finds I am to bulk proof the dough until it is doubled in size. I didn’t use a straight walled container so this complicates the visual observation. The dough sat on the counter at “room temperature” for an eternity. It did not seem to get to the double in size stage. When shaped it lost all the elasticity and was a pile of goo. Of course it turned out to be a Frisbee.

I read on a couple of sites to use a graduated container and small amount of the mixed dough to measure the rise along with the dough ball. I tried it, it never doubled in size. Sat forever on counter, turned to goo and more Frisbees. I attempted 4 different times all with the same outcome.

THEN I FOUND OUT my Einkorn would not bulk up double but more like 1/3 again its original size. If the writer of the recipe actually had Einkorn that would double in volume THEN THEIR EINKORN GRAIN was not the same as mine even if from the same place as could have been a different batch. I actually spoke to a farmer who grew Turkey Red and their protein content was like 13+ and a neighbor who grew the same grain had protein content of 11+. So if you had the 13 and I had the 11 our breads would not react the same. Frankly I do not think even after a year I have enough experience under my belt to tell the difference during the fermentation stages.

I recently even attempted your recipe for Rustic Country Bread, it was okay but I did something wrong and I believe it was the organic white that may have threw me a curve. I have read that dough that if not fully fermented can have a “doughy” texture in the center. Your bread came out of the oven at 210F and thumped on the bottom so I expected it to be baked all the way through. In this case (I didn’t write down the details of the bake as I am getting lazy :laughing:) but from memory I only bulk proofed for 3 hours and final proofed an hour as it had risen but according to my testing this fell short of the total 7 hours needed, so I believe this was the issue.

Some time ago Melissa started a thread on Ancient and Heirloom grains and I believe some of the information that came out of it was good. I have books using Ancient Grains and Heritage and some of the recipes come out and some do not. It is belief at this point that the failures I’ll call them was from not knowing what to expect from the grain in my possession.

My wife purchased a bag of bread flour from the store so I could compare it to the whole grain organic white berries I grind into flour I purchased from Breadtopia. Using a standard for both flours the BF totally fermented in 5 hours. The organic white in 7 hours and the organic white was about 15-20% or so less in height (because of whole grain I suspect.) They both looked different when totally fermented so outside of the timing on the organic white I am still not sure if I could visually tell when bulk fermentation and final proofing is complete. The poke test was not reliable in either case.

@SilverTwist as an example uses a combination Einkorn and Sonora over and over it is her favorite bread. She tested her flour (she buys from Central Milling) to find the total fermentation time and no longer has to do it. As she has repeated results using the flour from Central Milling they must hold their flour mix to a repeatable standard. She does not go through the gyrations any more at least on this combination as she knows what to expect from the flour. At least that is what I remember from our conversations.

What I never realized is that the same species grain can be different, depending on grower, locale, soil, how stored etc., (Falling numbers, protein content) which effects the final outcome. So how does a novice know what that 50# bag of grain will do unless they test it? After all the mills test their flour, make additions after milling before selling it so baked goods come out like they are supposed to. If we buy from Breadtopia or any other purveyor they have little information on the grain in their possession and I have to assume the cost to test it would be out of the question. Not too many of the growers go through the testing unless required by the companies purchasing. I read from one grower that his falling numbers changed dramatically on the same harvest as it sat in the grain bins absorbing water from the atmosphere. His purchaser actually rejected the last shipment because of the F/N. Who knows maybe this grower found a purchaser that did not care about this issue and the only one that suffers is the person trying to use it and failing not knowing why.

My testing gives me a starting point. As an example what I make today will stay in the proof box @80F for 5 hours and then shape and final proof for 1 1/2 hours leaving a little rise for oven spring. Now I can visually tell what the bread looks like at 5 hours can poke it and see what it feels like and it should turn out. No need to do any further testing until I start using the retarder or buy another bag of grain. Doing it this way also allows me to time the entire process to my schedule and not have the dough dictate.

As this approach does work it may help other newbies get the experience needed.

First of all, I want to emphasize that my process works for me and I am 100% in favor of anyone doing whatever process works for them. So if what I wrote came across in any way as a criticism or a put-down or anything like that, I did not mean it that way at all.

Second, alls I’m sayin’ is after having done some baking for a while and coming to a certain basic understanding of the sourdough fermentation lifecycle, I can bake pretty decent bread pretty much every time, but I really don’t know (happily) a lot of the stuff that you wrote about up there. I have heard of falling numbers and ash content and other grain stats like that, but I have no idea what those things actually mean in practice or how they may affect a given grain’s performance.

From experience, I do know that einkorn, even though it has “numbers” that say it is “high in protein,” has almost no workable gluten at all so, all by itself, it barely rises because there is no elasticity so no tension to hold in the bubbles that the sourdough beasties are kindly blowing in their process of consuming sugars from the flour. I learned this from baking a couple loaves of einkorn bread. So now if I want to bake a loaf of einkorn bread, I don’t expect it to rise a lot. And in fact, if I wanted to make an einkorn loaf, I’d make it in a bread pan rather than trying to do a freeform, artisan style loaf.

I also know from experience that grain changes, sometimes quite a lot, from one batch to another. So when I buy “Red Fife” (which I usually like baking with) from Breadtopia over and over again over the years, I don’t expect it to be the same grain every time. It varies from year to year, season to season; I assume also from farmer to farmer. It tends to have a certain character that I like, but it varies a lot within a range.

Those variations don’t throw me off because when I look at, smell, and feel the dough as it is bulk fermenting, I’m doing it without any hard and fast expectations. On Thursday evening I almost always mix up a bowl of dough for something like the country loaf that you mentioned, and leave it to bulk proof overnight. When I wake up on Friday morning, I take a look, take a sniff, do a couple stretch and folds. Sometimes the dough looks exactly like it did when I left it on the counter the evening before - like nothing at all is happening. Sometimes it’s already poofy and 1.5x expanded with a slight sour smell. Sometimes the bulk proof is “done” by 9am, sometimes not till 3pm. Either way is fine by me because I’m just gonna shape it, put it into a proofing basket, and then pop it in the fridge until early Saturday morning when I’ll bake it.

I think that the only thing I really have to get “right” is ending the bulk proof after the dough has expanded enough (1.5x? 2x?, maybe 2.5x?), but well before it hits its peak and starts contracting. How do I know how much is “enough”? That’s where the experience comes in and I don’t know how to communicate it other than to say, with grains like the ones I am talking about that have gluten content and performance in the range of a hard red wheat, an expansion of somewhere between 1.5X to 2.5X is probably in the ballpark (though I’ve also had success with bulk proofing up to 3x). And for beginners I’d say that as long as the dough has become poofy / aerated, then it’s probably better to err on the side of stopping the bulk proof too early than too late. If you stop it early and leave a lot of food in the dough, then oven spring is going to give you a nice loaf even if the crumb doesn’t end up being as open as it might be if you nail the timing better.

Then over time, that nailing the timing better, is the art part. You get to know how temperature and hydration and starter activity level and different grain performance all interact with each other so you can get a sense of what to expect timing-wise and make adjustments. And by the way, for me, all those variables are qualitative and not quantitative. When I say grain performance I’m totally not talking about falling numbers. When I say hydration, I mostly don’t really know what the actual % is - I’m just talking about how wet the dough SEEMS. I’m probably gauging the temperature by whether I am wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt.

I can tell you that when I was starting out I over-complicated things a lot. Baking bread has become a more enjoyable craft as I have let it become simpler. And my bread has gotten better, too.

I appreciate your comments and at some point will be able to do the same as you.

[quote=“homebreadbaker, post:6, topic:12272”]
I’m probably gauging the temperature by whether I am wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt.
[/quote] hahaha cute!!!

I spoke of FN of a particular grain and it is important, frankly numbers that most berry sellers rarely have. If my pea brain serves me right the grain is starting to degrade similar to an autolyse without the salt. Same process is happening. TYPICALLY a large scale bakery uses flour with a FN of 250-280 seconds for baking bread. An FN of over 350 indicates a flour should be supplemented with a form of amylolytic enzyme or a malted grain flour. Pick up a package of processed bread flour and you will find the addition.

What happens as the FN increases then the amylase level increases which makes a greater formation of dextrins. This results in a sticky dough that is not only difficult to handle but will have slicing issues as well.

This quote came from an organic miller, Cook Natural Products " Our organic flours are un-malted, so they have high falling numbers, generally in excess of four hundred. Malted bread flours have falling numbers of: 250-290. Generally the baker will find that fermentation progresses more rapidly as falling numbers become lower."

Improper storage at home can also raise the FN number as the grain absorbs moisture from the air, which is why most berry suppliers suggest desiccants and oxygen removers (reduce oxidation). Personally I re-package all my purchased grain in vacuumed bags with desiccants. If a person does not store their grain properly what worked in January might not work in June the same way.

I really appreciate Dennis for starting this, as I have been struggling with the final proof.
I use a mixture of grains just to help with the gluten development process. I normally don’t have problem with the bulk proof. However, every single time I have a lengthy final proof, the bread doesn’t rise. After bulk proof, if I just bench rest, shape, and then bake within 1.5 hours, then the bread rises nicely.
I have read that the final proof is for flavor of the bread, and I have been struggling to learn this.
I wish the postings I read about the final proof has pictures to show when the dough is ready with final proof.
Attached are recently baked read WITHOUT the long final proof.
If you can help pin point, I really appreciate your help. I stick with 90% hydration, and home milled flour.
Thank you all,
a

Uploading: IMG_2.jpg… Uploading: IMG_3.jpg… Uploading: IMG_4.jpg… Uploading: IMG_5.jpg…


Attached are more pictures
a

If you have successfully implemented long final proofing and have pictures, please share.
I would love to see how/what the dough looks like when it is ready
Thank you,
a

These had an 8 hr refrigerator final proof. There are before and after photos toward the end of the blog post. If you scan thru the Breadtopia blog posts, I usually include those types of photos, though I don’t always do long cold final proofs.

Thank you Melissa,
I am going to try final proof in the fridge after short rest on the counter and watch the dough appearance for readiness.
a

1 Like

When you say you have a problem with a long final proof do you mean if you retard the dough in the fridge?

Can you also give your recipe and method for a full picture of what’s going on.

I think a big question here is… What are you looking for at the bulk ferment stage. Once you have the answer to this then a lot falls into place. The answer comes with practice but its not a certain amount of time passing nor is it “necessarily” doubling.

What you’re looking for is gluten formation and a good matrix of bubbles. You will notice a change in the feel of the dough and the skin becomes smooth.

In a 100% whole wheat dough you might only be aiming for 30% risen. It depends on the flour, the hydration etc.

Hello Abe,
I don’t have an exact recipe, I change the grains different time. I use home milled flour, my hydration rate is ~90%, if I add dried fruit, I increase the hydration rate to ~95%. Below are the steps:
prepare levain (~ 6 hours in advance of mixing)
mill flour
mix flour with water
fold the levain into the prepared flour
first fold/mix within 20 minutes
then coil fold about 3 more times at ~30 minutes intervals
bulk fermentation overnight (often longer than 9 hours)

If I remove the fermented dough, bench rest, shape and bake within 1.5 hours, I get nice oven spring.

However, I read that long final proof improve the flavor. But, after shaping if I do the final proof in the fridge for 12-24 hours, then remove and bake within 1.5 hours, the bread doesn’t rise well. I suspect over proofing, but I am trying to see whether I can achieve long final proof with oven spring for the sake of better flavor.
I saw Melissa’s long final proof loaves and they look gorgeous, but I struggle and don’t know how to get there. I understand different grains and hydration levels have an impact on this.
However, I should be able to get some what oven spring, right?
For example, some of Eric’s videos, he has his dough sit overnight on the counter and it proofs so nice. I know my house is much warmer and I cannot do that, but I am not leaving the dough on the counter.
I really appreciate your help!
a

That may be my problem, I normally bulk ferment the dough overnight, this may be too long?

1 Like

I think you’re over doing it. Melissa’s recipe has 75g starter to 500g flour. This 15% starter. If the bulk ferment is done to an optimal level then the 8 hour final proof in the fridge is fine. More often than not it can be baked straight from the fridge too.

Now if you have a high percentage of starter, fermenting it to the outer limits, shaping and final proofing for up to 24 hours then your dough could very well be over proofed.

How much starter do you use? What temperature is the dough fermenting at?

I think you should keep it simple and don’t keep changing the recipe till you’ve perfected it.

Hi Abe,
I really appreciate your valuable time and help here.
Of all the years I have been baking, I feel like a beginner, why, I cannot mix my starter with water and then add flour. I have to make a levain for the dough to rise, my starter is 100% hydration with rye (home mill).
For each baking I use 50g starter, add to 200g water and 200g fresh home mill flour.
I let this sit for about 6 hours, when the levain is bubbly, then I mix with the flour.
For some reason, when I mix my starter with water and then mix the flour, I don’t get a good rise. I normally feed the starter the day before.
Thank you for your help again,
a

No problem Anh.

I’m just kneading a low hydration starter in preparation for a recipe I’m working on. I’ll leave you with this topic I posted last week…

What is a levain?

This is the issue. Yes your starter % is small but you’ve prefermented a large proportion of the flour and then gone into a long bulk ferment.

I think taking a strep back, ironing out these issues will help you to move forward. Perhaps another recipe would be ideal to practice on.

Dennis and Melissa,
Does this dough look ready to you?