Sourdough Hokkaido Milk Bread with Tangzhong

(Melissa) #1

This is the comment thread for the Breadtopia blog post originally published here:

To leave a comment, click the Reply button below

If you do not see the “Reply” button, you will need to log in or register an account. Please click the blue “Log In” button in the upper right of the page. :arrow_upper_right:

(dvhirst865) #2

Hi, I’ve tried the Tangzhong approach for rolls with good results. Interesting to see a bread loaf recipe. I wonder how use of whole wheat flour would impact the loaf / rolls? Comment? Thanks.

(John) #3

Is there any concern for the long bulk ferment time at room temp with milk and eggs in the dough?

(Melissa) #4

Whole grain flour will make the bread less fluffy, but I don’t think it has to be super dense.
Using a high protein whole grain flour would likely help keep the crumb open.

I haven’t tried this exact recipe with whole grain flour, though, so I’m really just speaking off the cuff and from experience making whole grain sourdough challah.

I’d love to hear how it goes if you try it. I’d suggest using more water.

(Melissa) #5

I’ve never had a problem with long room temp ferments of dough with milk and eggs. I think the sourdough yeast and bacteria populations may play a role in this stability, and in the end you bake the final product to over 190F internal temp, and salmonella, for example, dies between 148F and 160F.

I did have to think about this for a sec though, because I hear what you’re saying: we’re all told to refrigerate … milk in particular. Eggs have some leeway - if never refrigerated, they don’t have to be refrigerated. Condensation is the problem on the exterior. And of course, now there are guidelines saying raw flour is risky. Humph.

(flower1) #6

I just discovered a website by Sonia Gupta, called … and she has an excellent recipe for 100% WHOLE WHEAT BREAD using the Tangzhong Method, & she doesn’t use any “Bread Flour” or Vital Wheat Gluten to make her 100% Whole Wheat Bread LIGHT AND FLUFFY using the Tangzhong Method. It’s amazing that this young woman (I think she lives in India) has come up with the sort of 100% Whole Wheat LOAF that is LIGHT and FLUFFY, using the Tangzhong Method, & NO “Bread Flour” (i.e. Bread Flour which is Hard Wheat Flour without the bran), & NO Vital Wheat Gluten. Now, she says that she’s working on making a SOURDOUGH 100% WHOLE WHEAT BREAD using the Tangzhong Method. I can’t wait to see what she comes up with. I hope either Eric at Breadtopia &/or Melissa Johnson can contact that young woman … Sonia Gupta … and, perhaps, make a trio of “bakers” to perfect a Sourdough 100% Whole Wheat Bread using the Tangzhong method. I used to bake our own 100% whole wheat bread loaves for some 15 years, starting in the mid-1980s, but stopped when fresh-baked organic 100% whole wheat bread loaves became widely available in the Toronto (Canada) area by 2000 … and I also became TOO BUSY with my Accounting Practice to find time to bake bread 3 times a week. I also used to grind my own organic HARD WHEAT kernels in my electric grain mill to make freshly-milled hard whole wheat flour for bread making. I would sift out the “bran” from the hard whole wheat flour to make “Bread flour” that I would use to make pizza dough, or dinner rolls that didn’t need to have bran in them. I also used to mill my own organic SOFT WHEAT kernels to make soft whole wheat flour … and I would sift out the bran to make soft wheat flour to make fancy cakes, cookies, pie crusts, etc. And I would use the “bran” to make bran muffins, etc. I won some prizes for my cakes, and cookies, over the years. Now that I’m retired, I am planning to go back to grinding my own grains & baking our breads … but this time I want to make bread with sourdough starter.

(dvhirst865) #7

Interesting reading per this link, based on @flower1’s comments. I hope you will take a look, give it a tryout, and let us all know how it goes. Thanks.

(flower1) #8

Thank you dvhirst865 for posting the link to the Light and Fluffy Whole Wheat loaf bread recipe using the Tangzhong method, from the “” website, so other members on this blog can see what I was telling everyone in my first post, yesterday … July 9, 2018. Yah - I’d like very much to find out if anyone out there will be trying to make LIGHT and FLUFFY 100% Whole Wheat Bread using the Tangzhong method but also with SOURDOUGH starter.

(Melissa) #9

@flower1 and @dvhirst865

Thanks for sharing the info. I’d love to hear about your whole grain tangzhong / hokkaido milk breads experiences - using the recipe you referenced or others. I’m looking forward to experimenting myself, too, though I have a few projects ahead of it.

(flower1) #10

Hi, everyone! I forgot to tell all of you about another excellent website called: An Oregon Cottage … where Jami (a woman) has several bread recipes, & one of her best recipes is for LIGHT and FLUFFY 100% WHOLE WHEAT DINNER ROLLS … I think she uses the Autolyse method (I can’t recall right now … it’s been a while since I watched her tutorial videos on bread making) … the dinner rolls she makes in the video on her website are amazingly soft & fluffy. So, there is more than one method to bake up light and fluffy 100% Whole Wheat Dinner Rolls … and Jami also makes 100% whole wheat loaf bread, & pita bread.

(Aaron) #11

Thanks for such a carefully written and illustrated recipe. Very impressive. Just about to come out of the oven!

(Bruce) #12

I made this bread. I was a little lazy and ran it through the dough making program on my old bread maker appliance. I did not wait for the first fermentation, I let it sit for 20 minutes or so and threw it in with all the other ingredients. The outcome was absolutely delicious, light and airy with great flavor. I should have made 3 rather than the recommended 2 loaves though, the pans were overfilled.

(Joseph) #13

Made the bread and it was a great experience. Made it exactly as presented. Came out exactly as pictured and I was more than pleased. To my taste it is a tad on the sweet side. I was wondering what you thought about reducing the sugar in the main mix and not in the starter? Do you need that much sugar to support the yeast in such a high milk and butter dough?

(Melissa) #14

Definitely go for it! In my first version of this, there was no brown sugar in the starter, just 100% hydration all purpose flour starter. Brown sugar is less sweet than white sugar, but with a plain starter that was basically 30g less sugar in the bread and the fermentation was perfectly fine.

I think I’d still do the sweet stiff starter build, but I’d reduce the dough white sugar from 100g to 70-80g.

I’d love to hear how to goes.

(hank1946) #15

I have made this bread a dozen times. I have used several recipes no matter what I have thrown at it, it never fails! From a little to slack to a little to firm and not sticky at all. I really don’t see the need to use another kind of sandwich bread with these ingredients? Be aware the first raise needs time I have never been able to get a good rise in less than 90 minutes unless I used 1 tablespoon of gold label yeast for each 24oz loaf made at the same time. 90 minutes should get it to double 30 or 45 even 60 minutes will get you to barely be able to notice it raising in the bowl? I use an 8qt bowl for up to 4lbs of dough. Every time I look at it at 45 minutes I still think I did something wrong? 90 minutes or a little more and to looks wonderful.
I have used more butter and more eggs than called for and triple the sugar and it only needed a little more time to raise. As long as you stay within reason you can’t fail when using more butter and eggs only needed a little more flour. The more Tangzhong I used the better they seemed to come out. To make it I have used half water and half milk or all milk or all water it seems to not make much of a difference. In reading about how to make the Tangzhong it seems to be better to not get it hotter than 160 degrees when cooked. Like that it looks more like pudding instead of paste. I also read the reaction you need stops somewhere just above that. Also, about a 6 to 1 liquid and flour seems to be the conscience in the receipts I have read. If you have not made you don’t know what you are missing. Hamburger buns rolls and sandwich bread you can’t miss.

(Donna322) #16

I just made this recipe this weekend…all by hand as I am waiting for my mixer which will be here this week. This is a keeper! I made 12 rolls and a small loaf. Will definitely do cinnamon rolls next. I replaced 15% of the white bread flour with a wheat/rye blend (triticale). I may increase that amount slightly too :slightly_smiling_face:

(Melissa) #17

That’s fantastic. All hand mixing must have been quite a workout. I’m glad you like the recipe.

Triticale is so interesting. I haven’t used it yet, and it’s good to hear the recipe works well replacing some of the bread flour with it. Tritordeum is another neat hybrid I heard of a few months ago. It’s grown primarily in Spain and is a durum and wild barley cross.

(Donna322) #18

Melissa I don’t usually work with enriched doughs so this was different for me…the rolls and the loaf were still on the pale side a bit so I’m assuming I overproofed on the second rise a little. Still tastes great and was not dense at all…I am in love…I just hope I get the proofing right next time to get that nice brown color like your photos :slightly_smiling_face:

(Melissa) #19


I’m so glad your bread was tasty and fluffy. I continue to struggle with getting good Malliard effect in sourdough leavened enriched breads e.g. a recent golden blonde challah that I didn’t over or under proof.

I would be more inclined to attribute light coloring to the acid profile of your starter than your timing. How to fix that (apart from continued egg or milk washes throughout the bake) is something I’m still learning!

(Charlotte Farago) #20

I am a bit confused as to the recipe for sweet stiff starter, 90g flour = 1/3 C. My scale tells me 90g is 3/4 C. Is the water amount by weight - I usually go by volume.
Thanks for your help.