Ah, interesting! So the fact that hard red spring (generally) has more protein than hard red winter does not necessarily make it open crumbier. About an hour ago I bought some hard red spring berries at Sprouts…
As to the ancient grains, for now I’ll not go back farther than a couple of centuries.
I tried the sort-of recipe and got an unsuccessful result—or to put it more positively, a great opportunity to learn. 
I hope someone can suggest what my results indicate about how I can approach the process differently.
First, I did not understand what “three rounds of stretching and folding” means. Before I tried this loaf, I baked a whole-grain loaf at Zero Waste Chef (https://zerowastechef.com/2015/09/17/sourdough-bread/). The procedure outlined there includes stretching the dough in the bowl, folding it over, turning the bowl a quarter turn, stretching and folding again, and repeating for four times total. So I considered that to be a round of stretching and folding. Is that okay?
Second, after retarding the dough for eleven hours, I noticed only a little expansion. I suppose now that was a sign that I shouldn’t have gone forward with the process, but I did anyway. I proofed the dough for 1.75 hours at room temperature. After baking, the dough seemed flat. After a few hours, I cut the loaf. The inside had some largish holes, but the bread was gummy (though still edible). Does the gumminess suggest that my loaf was underproofed? Maybe I should have left the dough out at room temperature for a bit before retarding it. If I didn’t do the stretching, folding, and shaping properly, could that account for the gumminess? In case it matters, I should say that I used a whole-grain starter.
When terms like “rounds of stretching and folding” are used, could a link be inserted that explains what that means?
Thank you for your help!
It sounds like your dough was underproofed. Going by dough feel and expansion is always preferable to looking at the clock because of the many variables that influence fermentation speed.
Your interpretation of the instructions for rounds of stretching and folding was correct There are quite a few strategies for stretching and folding, and in my opinion it’s mostly about personal preference and dough feel.
In this video, around minute 8:30, there’s an explanation of the process and you can see @eric stretching and folding
Here’s a video of me stretching and folding a stiffer dough from this recipe https://breadtopia.com/toasted-millet-porridge-sourdough/
A quick scoop and “coil fold” – a different technique – toward the end of the fermentation
A newfangled approach – “laminating” during the bulk fermentation. Lamination usually refers to croissants and layers of dough and butter, but now it’s also a type of stretching and folding.
Melissa,
Thank you for the pointers on stretching and folding. I am in the middle of trying the bread again. Last night, I mixed the flour, water, starter, and salt and used the Rubaud method, though for much longer than 2.5 minutes because I couldn’t get the same speed as in the video. Then I stretched and folded, but for eight stretch-and-folds per round rather than four, to more closely match what the videos showed. Next, I left the dough out for an hour before retarding; I thought that would cause the dough to rise, as it didn’t for my first attempt when I retarded it right away.
But after eleven hours in the refrigerator, the dough didn’t seem to rise one iota. So I left it out at room temperature for six hours. Still, it didn’t rise. A few minutes ago, I put it on the wet cutting board under a bowl, thinking that maybe I didn’t notice that it rose. The dough seemed very loose; I had to work to get it to fit under the bowl because it kept wanting to spread out.
I’m inclined to just toss the dough, but I might try proofing it at room temperature. I doubt that will do any good.
My starter doesn’t quite double in size between feedings, but it seems active, and it deflates when I stir in the new four and water. But could it be subpar? A couple times over the last week, I missed a feeding, but still I notice bubbles. I fed it on time for the past few days. Do you have an idea what I’m doing wrong?
I intended to toss the dough from yesterday but I left it because I went out. This morning when I checked it, I discovered the dough had risen. So I decided to bake to see what would happen.
The dough was very loose, so I had to scrape it into the parchment paper lining my Dutch oven. The looseness did not lend itself to scoring with a razor blade.
After baking and letting the bread rest four hours, I cut it open to discover that the crumb was fairly open though gummy (but less gummy than my first attempt). The bread tasted sour for sure. The top of the loaf cracked open despite my feeble attempts to score it.
In total, the dough set one hour at room temperature, eleven hours in the refrigerator, and twenty-two more hours at room temperature.
Does the long delay in rising signal that my starter wasn’t quite ready? How important is it to use the exact brand of flour listed? I had King Arthur organic red spring whole wheat flour and organic white whole wheat flour, so I used that. Would using the Breadtopia flour have resulted in a better outcome?
I’m so glad you didn’t throw away the dough.
I think starter strength may be the issue. This comment in the Demystifying thread elaborates more on that:
Your flour substitutions should have been fine - not an issue.
Melissa,
Thank you! For my next loaf, I’ll try the recipe once again, but I’ll work on my starter beforehand.
Do you think keeping an active whole-wheat starter is more difficult than maintaining an active starter made from all-purpose flour?
Not more difficult - I recently did that for the einkorn project and it was fine.
Whole grain may peak sooner, and thus get hungry faster, and it can have a more sour character i think…
Someone please correct me or add info if you’ve got any
Melissa,
I’ll use the whole-wheat starter, then.
If my starter contains more active cultures next time, would that make the dough tighter? The loose dough made handling difficult.
The stretching and folding – gluten development interventions – can improve the dough feel in my experience.
Also, using slightly less water.
If possible change only one variable for the next bake, rather than both so you know which one made (or didn’t make) a difference.
Underproofed dough doesn’t feel loose in my experience, so I don’t think a stronger starter will help with the loose feeling.
Melissa,
After reading your note, I changed how I fed my starter. I believe I had become careless in that I added only 50 grams or so of flour and 50 grams of water to about a cup and a half of deflated starter. So I lessened the amount of starter I kept when adding that amount of flour and water—down to maybe a half to three-quarters cup. I figured that would make my starter stronger. It had holes that spread apart when I spooned some out—as it had before—but the smell seemed stronger. So I thought I was right, and I kept feeding the starter that way for several days.
Yesterday, I started my third attempt at this bread. I followed the same procedure, and everything seemed the same as before. Unfortunately, what also seemed the same was that the dough did not rise after eleven hours in the refrigerator. I pulled it out this morning and left it at room temperature; after more than three hours, it still hasn’t risen. I will continue to leave it out.
The dough seems too wet to be able to put on a cutting board under a bowl, although I haven’t taken it out of the container yet. I don’t understand. If someone uses the same proportion of flour and water and gets a workable dough, how come I can’t? Could the King Arthur flour absorb less water than Breadtopia flour?
If my dough takes the same amount of time to rise as it did during my last attempt at this bread, would you suggest something else I could do differently? Thank you!
Try feeding your starter the same weight flour and water as starter, so use 50g starter (<1/4 cup) for 50 water and 50 flour.
My second advice is leave your dough at room temperature for 3+ hours before refrigerating it. By refrigerating it immediately, you’re not letting the fermentation get jump-started, and the whole process is going to require significantly more time. Or simply don’t refrigerate it all and see how long it takes.
Do you mean not the same weight combined but two-to-one flour-water combined to starter? I was shooting for 100g starter to 100g flour-water.
I understand about how leaving the dough out could help. Would that be because my starter still isn’t strong enough, or would that be helpful for the recipe in general?
1:1:1 or 1:2:2 are common feeding ratios to build the leaven/starter to use in a bread
The colder the dough is, the less activity. At 37 degrees Fahrenheit I believe things are close to shut down. I’ve put dough in the fridge right after mixing for 4 days and seen it be relatively dormant the whole time, and still had to bring it up to room temperature for many hours on that fourth day before it was ready to shape.
this mostly talks about fermentation at the higher temps but it gives you a general idea of the curve
https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/a-few-tips-on-dough-temperature/
I should note, though, that I rarely take my dough temperature. I pop it in and out of the fridge as needed to slow or speed things up and I look at it and not the clock. That flexibility is the joy of being a home baker – I’m not running a bakery that demands a hundred loaves at opening time.
On your next batch, try doing three rounds of stretching and folding in the first three hours after mixing at room temp as I suggested in the recipe.
This batch should be fine too. You can do some stretching and folding now with wet fingertips or a dough scraper. This will build dough strength and it sounds like you’re still early in the fermentation process.
Flour absorbtion can indeed be different, so you should always add water with caution – but when you build dough strength, a wetter dough feels more manageable.
Yes, I did stretch and fold three times as suggested for this batch, at 0.5, 1.5, and 2.5 hours after mixing. The stretches and folds were in the bowl, eight times per round with a 90-degree bowl turn after each. Should I stretch and fold again? Could my Rubaud mixing or stretch and folds not have been adequate?
I did not stretch and fold again because I figured your suggestion was because you assumed I had skipped that step.
This morning I baked the bread; scoring the top of the loaf did nothing, as before, because the dough was too loose. I did not even attempt to shape it. The result was different—the crumb was more open than last time in that the bread had more holes, though less large ones. But the bread was gummy like before.
As far as adding water cautiously, the dough did not feel too wet when I first mixed it with the dough whisk, nor when I used the Rubaud method of mixing. Only when I stretched and folded did the dough seem too loose. I wet my fingers continually during the process because the dough had been sticking to the bowl. That wouldn’t add an appreciable amount of water to the dough, would it? I had mixed water with starter before adding flour to the mixture. So I wasn’t adding water. Should I instead withhold some water to possibly add later?
Shall I assume that my Rubaud mixing or stretch and folds are inadequate?
I’m guessing the main issue is how much water you’re adding on your fingers during stretching and folding…since you say the dough doesn’t start out feeling overly wet.
See if you can use less water on your hands, and just have doughy fingers.
Also, yes, it is fine to not dissolve your starter in the water before adding it to the flour.
Finally your flour could be a little less absorbent than mine. Especially when I mill the wheat berries, the resulting flour is thirsty.
The more you handle dough, though, the more comfortable you will be with wet feeling dough, and that is also possibly part of the situation here.
Dial back the water and possibly start with half or a quarter of the flour being bread flour or all-purpose, so that you get a handle on the fermentation and shaping, before you jump into the more tricky all whole grain.
I’ve been very busy with a project over the past couple weeks until today, so I haven’t been able to respond until now.
I think you were right about my King Arthur flour not being as absorbent as the flour listed here. For two successive loaves, I cut back on the water to 460 grams and used 300 g. red whole-wheat flour, 150 g. white whole-wheat flour, and 100 g. bread flour. The results were good. I’ll continue to tinker with the recipe, and I’ll buy Breadtopia flour to see how a loaf made from that turns out.
Thank you for your help!
I’m so glad you’re getting good results!