Day 11 starter bubbles, never rises, no luck so far!

Hello, I have been reading through all of the forum posts here and am hoping you can help me too! I created my first starter 11 days ago and she has never matured - I’ll include a few photos but basically, she will bubble but not rise. Until I found your site, I was following another website’s guidance, building up a sizable starter by feeding it initially 60g wheat flour and 60g water, and then discarding half each day through day 7 and feeding it 60g AP flour and 60g water (so by day 7, I kept 116.25g starter and added to that 60g flour, 60g water). I knew at that point something felt off because my starter seemed very runny.

Once I moved on from this person’s guidance, I decided to reduce down to I believe 75g starter and do a 1:1:1 feed, still with AP flour. I use water from my fridge but do live in Oregon and understand our tap water is chlorinated.

The other thing is that I have kept my starter in the oven with the light on and door shut for 1-2 hours each day but turned off in-between. I’ve wondered if this created a temperature swing that negatively impacted my starter? My house is consistently about 68-72 degrees right now.

So issue #1 is that I am on day 11 and have never seen a rise. My starter will bubble on top, but never doubled and never had foamy, thick bubbly texture I see in photos of mature starters.

Two days ago, on day #9, I followed the guidance I saw here and skipped a feed (am only feeding every 24 hours), and that did produce a little more activity but not anything significant. Yesterday, on day #10, I decided to follow your guidance to keep only 50g starter and add to that 50g water and 60g AP flour. In the meantime, I kept my remaining starter in the original jar and added to that 50g water and 60g AP flour. I have no idea how much starter was in there, but it was a lot by this point. I also left my oven light on for 24 hours but with the door ajar (instead of the above).

This morning, day #11, my new starter (the 50g mentioned above) is showing some bubbling but nothing noteworthy and definitely did not rise in 24 hours. But interestingly, the original starter (original jar mentioned above) had the most activity I’ve seen to date! It did not double and it does not look like a mature starter, but definitely there was some progress! (note: I unfortunately did not take a photo) - also, it distinctly smelled like nail polish remover today.

I decided to conduct an experiment and feed the new starter: 50g starter, 25g whole wheat flour (instead of AP), and 25g water. I saw this 1:5:5 ratio mentioned on your site, so we will see what happens. Now that I have 2 starters, I figure I have nothing to lose?

I fed the original starter 54g starter/water/AP flour. So, back to 1:1:1.

I will post a few photos, but they all look pretty underwhelming day to day. (Also have switched the starters back and forth between two jars, so don’t want to confuse.) I will report back tomorrow as well as reply here. The commentary I’ve read here has been so helpful, I am hoping you see this and have any thoughts or guidance! Thanks!

The day #11 photos of the old and new starter are just after feeding this morning, FYI.




It sounds like the starter with the nail polish remover smell is doing the right thing and maybe benefitted from not being diluted with new flour and water. It’s really hard to say.

I don’t think the temp swing matters much. Also, I’ve made starter from scratch at those house temps, so if there is a chance that the oven placement is keeping you from seeing a rise and fall of your starter, then I’d skip it. Usually a rise and fall is visible because you see streaking on the sides of the jar that was previously spatula’d clean.

I agree with what Melissa said. It expand on it a little more …

When I create a starter from scratch I feed it based on the starter’s action/growth. There is no set timetable, different flours/grains will develop starters at different rates. Easiest to hardest starters to make: durum, rye, whole wheat, AP flour.

The suggestion to hold off on the feeding is probably a good one. Some nascent starters will go as many as 4 days between feedings when left out at room temp. Frequent feeds provide ample food but can dilute the microbe population faster than it can multiple.

Room temp: you do not need to put your starter in the oven. The house temps you mentioned are perfect. I suggest leaving it out at room temp, covered by plastic. Besides, you need to be stirring it.

I prefer stiff starters, effectively a 70% hydration dough made of flour and water. They will double, triple, four-ple in size as they ripen over 24hrs sitting on the counter, but never become foamy. The foam thing happens with more liquidy starters. If you will be making recipes from the forum here (recommended!), I suggest you shoot for a starter more consistent with what other folks here have and use.

My experience with using chlorinated water is that it can be a little difficult to get a starter up and running from scratch if using it, but the starter microbes will prevail, eventually. If an established starter is healthy and robust, using filtered water or chlorinated water will not make much difference. Fwiw, when making a starter from scratch, I do not use any water. I used unsweetened pineapple juice because it has the same ph as a starter will have when mature. So, from the very start my nascent starter is an environment that represses the microbes I don’t want and creates a clear playing field for the ones I do want. After a couple feedings I switch over to using water. And ‘no’, there is no pineapple flavor to the starter. Once the starter is established I only use filtered water, 50-cents/gal from the water machine in front of the grocery store.

It is important to aerate a nascent starter at least 2 or 3 times a day as it is developing. More is better. If you are not occasionally stirring your starter, this could be a part of the problem, too.

Since you are 11 days into your starter, I believe you have established the microbes you need in it. They just need the opportunity for their colony to grow. I suggest leaving the starter on the counter, for now, and occasionally stirring it over the next couple of days. You’re looking for bubbles to indicate the fermentation you want in a starter is happening and then you can move to the next feeding.

The picture of your starter at day 3 looks good.

Thanks, Melissa. I appreciate the reply! Since both you and Otis suggested it, I’ve taken the starters out of the oven and placed on the counter. I am home during the day, so don’t believe I’ve missed the rise, but I am relieved to hear I don’t have to keep my oven light on all day every day. The other website I was following had me convinced temperature was the issue!

Thank you, Otis! I really appreciate this level of detail and it means a lot that you took the time to provide it. I have (gladly) moved my starters from the oven to the kitchen counter and am relieved to be done with the oven. I just stirred them and will a few more times today.

Since my starter has never really risen yet, including today (fed at 9 a.m. PT, it’s 1 p.m. now, so early still), do you have any ballpark of when I might feed it next? Not for 24 hours, or skip another feed (so 48 hours)?

Also, would you be able to suggest a 70% hydration starter/flour/water for my starter? (i.e., how much starter to keep at the next feed and how much water/flour to add)? I want to make sure I have the ratios right.

My day 3 started looked great, I agree! So, imagine my disappointment when things fell flat after that :frowning:

Thanks again!

Experiment… Take about 100g of your starter. Feed it enough flour to make a stiff dough. Knead it for about 10 minutes. Place in an empty jar with lid but not screwed on tight. Leave it in a warm place.

See what happens over the next few days.

Very normal. It’s something that recipes don’t tell you. The critters that turn up within the first three days are not all the same as you find in a mature starter. They eventually die off hence the “going quiet”.

I think you have a starter, meaning it is all there, it just needs time for the colony to grow. I would let it go until I saw plenty of bubbles throughout the starter, then feed it. I would expect to see bubbles within a day but give it 2 days unless you see a whole lot of bubbles, then go to the next feeding.

For the next feeding go with 3-1-1 … 90g starter, 30g water, 30g flour. Again, stir occasionally. Watch for bubbles in the next 1 to 2 days. It may 3 or 4 days, that’s ok. Just aerate it a few times a day.

Once that is all bubbly, feed 5-1-2 … 150g starter, 30g water, 60g flour for the next feeding. Note: just add the water and flour to all of the existing starter. Depending on how hydrate your original starter was, you will either stir or knead with wet hands a few times a day. Within a couple days you should see significant bubbles and an expanding starter.

The final feeding will be 4-1-3 … 120g starter, 30g water, 60g flour. Mix and knead with wet hands. Your starter should be going quicker, should double within several hours or a day. May take an extra day or 2, that’s ok, it’s on its own schedule. Once it has doubled, you are there, ready to use, or refrigerate. It will be come more robust over time with additional feedings.

I maintain my starters with 60g starter, 120 water, 170g flour.

Once you have your starter up and running you can easily flip back and forth between a wet starter and a stiff starter by simply changing the ratio when feeding. Abe can give you guidance on a ratio for wet starter.

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Hello @Otis, it’s now been 24 hours since the last feed and I am hoping to get your opinion on whether I should feed (based on your guidance above) or hold off another 12-24 hours? You can see she has bubbles but she did not rise. (I can’t recall if this is after or before I stirred and remembered to snap a photo.)

What you see on the sides above the rubber band is my attempt to scrape/clean the sides of this tall and narrow jar. In other words, it always looks like that, which is why I don’t think she is rising. Also, I am currently staying at home and watch my starter all day and night except from 12:30 a.m. - 7 a.m. I suppose it’s possible during that window but I just don’t feel like that’s the case?

So, good bubbling activity but no rise (in my opinion) and definitely still not those big cheese-like bubbles throughout nor is it pillow-y or marshmellow-y like mature starters I see as examples. Time to feed or keep waiting?

@Abe I want to try your experiment making dough with 100 grams but I am afraid to throw the ratios/guidance Otis gave me off?

Thanks, guys!



If those bubbles are not from you stirring it, then yes, you can go to the next feeding. If they are from stirring, then wait. When I stir a new starter the bubbles tend to be uniform size. Fermentation bubbles in a new starter tend to be smaller and uniform, initially, but become various sizes as the colony grows. Your bubbles look various sizes and much more of them then from just stirring.

If you wait until the end of today to feed it, you can watch to see any changes, probably more bubbles, don’t worry about rising, yet. Or feed it now and see if there are bubbles by this evening. If there are a lot of them, various sizes, go to the next feeding. If you feed it now and don’t get a bunch of bubbles by this evening, let to go overnight.

You definitely have a live starter. In a few days and a couple more feedings it will be more robust.

Tall jars are a pain to deal with. I do all of my starters in 1 qt Pyrex glass bowls with plastic snap on lids. The shape makes it easy to get the starter out, clean the bowl, etc.

Thank you! I do think this may be just after stirring (it was early and I had just woken up). I will wait until later tonight and see what the day brings.

The jar is a huge pain - I have plenty of those pyrex bowls and will switch over to that at the next feeding. I didn’t want to invest in any new jars until positive I am going to become a professional bread maker :slightly_smiling_face:

I think just stick to one piece of advice at a time. Follow @Otis recommendation. See how your starter responds.

You can try another fun experiment. Using whole wheat flour make a golf ball sized dough ball. Knead it for a few minutes then bury it in bread flour inside a small container. Something like a small jar. Put a lid/cover on it but not tight. Enough to breathe but keeps any little critters away. Place it somewhere warm and don’t even look at it for a week. After a week dish it out and you should find it has expanded and a hard shell has formed. Carefully cut it open and scoop out the inside. Give it a feed and see what happens.

@Abe I’ve been meaning to do this for ages – actually since almost exactly 1 year ago when I attended a webinar run by Jennifer Lapidus of Carolina Ground (flour mill in North Carolina) about desem. Maybe it’s time to give it a go!

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I know that a desem starter is a sweet starter kept low hydration, and seem to remember something about storing in flour, but havent looked into it. I didnt have a desem starter in mind with this fun ‘experiment’. It is a technique ive heard about and tried. While the dough ball ferments it feeds off the flour surrounding it. Makes a starter within a week and no fuss. It does need a little feeding to make it stronger but it does work.

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I will try it, Abe! Don’t have any bread flour at the moment but I’ll pick some up at the store. Thanks for the experiment! Didn’t realize the intent is that it makes a starter!

You can use AP flour if you have it in stock.

@Otis ok, I left my starter alone yesterday and didn’t feed until this morning (8 am PT). So, I skipped an entire 24-hr feed. You can see in the photo that by this morning, she had a lot of condensation (lid is not screwed on), very small uniform bubbles and had the nail polish smell. Fed the ratio above. HOWEVER, I realized that I accidentally fed her whole wheat flour :frowning: Do I just go back to AP at the next feed? Did I hurt anything in the process? Way too much hard work here to lose her now…



This photo is after feeding her with WW flour:


Whole wheat flour is absolutely fine. Starters love wholegrain. Goid for you and good for them. Nail polish smell means its hungry. Carry on with @Otis advice.

I do! I will try it today :grinning:

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Oh good, thanks @Abe! Will report back soon. Thanks again!