Thank you. May be a while before I can try again but will definitely try your suggestions. I bake my standard sourdough from fridge after long retread so I’m familiar with most of your suggestions. Will probably add some whit flour. Really like the taste of the bread.
First I’d like to thank both Eric for his web site then Melissa and he for their time making recipes and videos to help all of us get started on this venture. I have tried many of Breadtopia’s recipes some were good and some were a failure but in all it was and is a learning experience. Like many have said recipes are only a starting point. I have made Eric’s Artisan Rye and failed twice (starch attack only I did not realize what it was then) and then after some tweaking made a couple of successful loaves. One of my worst bakes involved bulking in my retarder. Zero rise and the dough spent 12 hours at 50F then 12 hrs at 60F and finally 12 hrs at 70F. HAD A BRICK! Since starting this I have probably made 50 loaves of rye using steps from different authors and am finally becoming “a little” more knowledgeable than I was some months ago when I started. I keep reading and finding out more on the subject and yesterday I revisited Eric’s recipe to do some comparisons and read through the comment section from beginning to end. I see that some folks have had good results with his recipe and some not so I thought I would share some info collected. Some of the issues I read in this forum relate to this information. By and large baking with rye reminds me of baking with Einkorn.
“Bran in rye bread actually lightens the dough (opposite of wheat) which is less dense than the “gels” that form in the rye dough. Whole rye turns out to be a better crumb.”
“Rye proteins are weaker than wheat and have a limited ability to form gluten. Rye breads DO NOT depend on gluten to hold them together. Rye contains carbohydrates called arabinoxylans which absorb water and turn into a viscous gel. It is this gel that can be wrecked by overworking or over kneading the dough.”
“Rye contains amylases that transform these carbohydrates into sugars “AKA starch attack”. Gluten in wheat is immune to this degradation. If a rye dough stands for too long at room temperature the amylase breaks down the starchy gels robbing them of their ability to trap gases. To make matters worse this amalase attack SPIKES during the first minutes of baking ending only when the dough reaches 175F. If left unimpeded this attack will turn rye doughs into dense, gummy loaf.”
“The solution to the biological drama is lactic acid producing bacteria or LAB. The affects of the LAB allow the rye doughs to hold their fermentation and baking gases as the amylase activity drops to almost zero. The pH of the dough plays an important part and without it you can have the starch attack.”
“Temperature is different meaning the yeast and LAB peak at 82F and 91F respectively giving an ideal dough temperature of 84F. Note that at typical home refrigerator temperatures both the yeast and LAB become dormant and will continue to die off at these temperatures.”
“Because of rye’s chemistry the vast majority of rye breads start with significant amounts of acidic LAB ingredients like honey, buttermilk, vinegar, yogurt or “wild yeast” culture.”
“Kneading or no kneading requirement: Generally over 50% rye = almost no knead, just return to original shape after bulk, minimal knead should produce structure. Over 60% rye knead not required nor is shaping.”
“A sour dough sponge that contains at least 30% of the total flour will eliminate the requirement of any additional commercial yeast and will produce a well developed crumb with complex flavor.”
“A sour dough culture kept in the refrigerator and fed every few days then refreshed within 36 hours of their last feeding will make good sour dough bread but it will be LAB dominant. IT MAY leaven the bread dough but then IT MAY NOT. It all depends. I have had it work and then it didn’t so what do you do? The only way around this is to use a small amount of commercial yeast in the final dough. This practice is not uncommon and does guarantee the dough will rise if you get the proofing right. Of course you could keep your starter on the counter at room temperature, refresh twice a day and eat lots of sourdough pancakes and Naan, you then can feel assured your starter will leaven the dough.”
“As rye dough is not wheat dough the parameters around proofing are noticeably different. Rye ferments quickly and the dough in itself is unstable. Bulk proofing with a large sour dough culture (LAB dominate) component are somewhat time tolerant with an average time of 1 hour or longer at 72-82F. There are some doughs that will go as long as 5 or 6 hours, just depends on the recipe and your environment. The dough should look smooth textured and will have expanded 1 1/2 to 2 times their original size and have a clean sour smell.”
“Final stage proofing IDEALLY should take place in the range of 85 to 105F although room temperature works just as well just takes longer. Average time for final proofing is 45 minutes but can vary considerably depending on composition of the dough and the bulk fermentation time. Doughs properly proofed will show first sign of broken bubbles on the surface and/or cracks in the dough.”
“Late stages of the final proof need to be watched closely as the dough can very quickly over-proof resulting in a dense, gummy loaf, especially with high percentage loaves (>50% rye)”
“Rye bread’s typical crust structure has a difficult time holding a vertical shape. Not unusual for a panned loaf to rise above the lip of the pan during final proof and then recede to the top of the lip during the bake. Depending on the grains used one with more rye in it will tend to flatten out a bit when freeform baked on a stone. Sides of the dough need support to rise up.”
“For a taller loaf using a pan use a pullman pan which is taller and not as wide.”
Except for the Pullman pan as I don’t have one yet, I have been using the above for a couple of months with no failures, so evidently some of it must be on target. I have yet to delve into using the retarder for cold proofing rye before baking. I know it is done.
That is a fantastic and fascinating summary! Thank you for doing this.
I was going to say that my rugbrod ferments nicely at cool temps, but then remembered it has yogurt or Kefir milk…so the LAB boost. I’ll be keeping an eye on dough temps this winter when I make my customary rye breads (75% rye for holiday mornings with smoked fish).
I would like to express my delight in finding this wonderful and easy recipe for making Artisan Rye Bread. I am a fan on No-Knead bread baking, but found the master recipe that I use doesn’t really cut it if the dough is left beyond a day or two in the refrigerator. So, I followed Eric’s recipe pretty much to the letter with the following exceptions:
I used 70g of plain bread flour master recipe that was two days old in place of the starter.
I also used 1 tsp of off the shelf, readily available in the supermarket active yeast.
After the mixing phase, the dough went into the refrigerator for 10 hours.
After 10 hours, the dough was left covered on the bench for 10 hours (about 64°F).
Continued with written recipe doing a final proofing of about 50 minutes as the dough was rising nicely and I didn’t want to loose oven spring. Went into a heated at 475°F enamel cast iron pot for 30 minutes (note:didn’t stick to pot) then lowered temp to 410° for 10 minutes. Internal temp was 200°after this time.
The result was a beautifully shaped and well risen loaf. I am really chuffed so will not be shy in trying more of your recipes. Thanks heaps.
Abe, thanks for that link! I love this Artisan Rye but love rye in general. Yesterday after looking at the site, I made the 8 hour quick sponge deli rye. As noted in the recipe, it makes a perfect light deli rye for sandwiches. And 8 hours start to finish, although I did wait until this morning to slice. Great blog for rye lovers!
A nice recipe to start with Liz. Glad you’re enjoying this site dedicated to all things rye. Great baker and wonderful recipes. Have fun working your way through them. Looking forward to seeing some of your bakes on this site.
Well, we’ll see . I did not add the instant yeast in the recipe and I used my “white” starter. I did not add the commercial yeast as I was confident in my starter and the flours. I noted that yeast is often added and I am not sure why. I will probably take the recipes and adjust to my preferences.
Exactly what I do Liz. Skip the added yeast and rely solely on my sourdough starter. They workout just as well. You’ve gotta give the famous Borodinsky bread a try. Can you get hold of red rye malt?
Good to hear, Abe (no yeast). I looked up red rye malt and looks like I can get it as it is a beer making thing also. Worse case, I found a recipe to make it from berries. So Borodinsky goes on my LONG list of things to try!
Exactly what I did. Couldn’t find any Red Rye Malt so went online to a brewing company and bought the next best thing - Crystal Rye Malt. It’s so similar it looks identical to Red Rye Malt when ground.
Thanks for sharing your modifications and the “loaf” technique. Your loaves look wonderful!
This is one of my favorite recipes also and I was just thinking to increase volume and bake in my Breadtopia oblong clay baker which makes a long, but loaf shape (vs batard or boule). I find myself going back to loaf shape often as it works well for the size sandwich’s and toast I like!
OK mixed it all up in the Kitchen Aid Friday afternoon, gave it two more 2-3 minute mix sessions after the initial mix, adding a bit more rye flour each time until the dough firmed up and began pulling away from the bowl. Knew I wasn’t going to get to bake it today it’s still in the refrigerator, I’ll take it out before bed and hopefully the long hibernation it the cold will have no ill effects. The dough smells amazing and I added two tablespoons of cocoa powder to get a dark color, looking at the dough it’s definitely dark, we’ll see how it bakes up tomorrow after a long chill.
This is hands down THE BEST Rye bread I’ve ever tasted!!! I’m a year into sourdough baking (at home). I’ve been experimenting with different recipes and this is now my fave to work with and eat!!! Thank you for this brilliant recipe!!! My crumb, scoring and bloom need more practice but I don’t mind eating my mistakes:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Looks awesome to me!
Thank you Eric!
I had great success with your recipe. Thank you for sharing! Has anyone had any luck freezing one of these loaves? I would like to bake a few ahead of time.
@cderuytt, I freeze breads all the time, but I slice them first and place the slices into a freezer Ziploc-type bag. I just toast up my slices when I want to eat my bread. I have never frozen a whole unsliced loaf though.
Can this be done using whole wheat flour? Will there be any significant changes?