Before this loaf, I didn’t think getting even a reasonable oven spring was possible with 100% whole grain. This is 100% Turkey Red, very finely milled just prior to mixing at 86% hydration (relative of course, as some extra water goes in during stretch-and-folding). I’m not sure what made it rise so well, but I did use for the first time a teaspoon of a three-stage Detmolder type rye starter (so maybe it’s not quite 100% Turkey Red after all) together with the usual, freshly refreshed, red wheat starter.
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Of all the heirloom grains I use, I’ve gotten the best gluten development and rise from Turkey Red – it seems like it is the closest heirloom thing (that I’ve used) to hard red wheat.
But that is indeed a great pop for 100% whole, and a really nice looking loaf.
Nice work!
If you drop your hydration down to 70-75% you’ll get more oven spring and better tasting bread. I get really good oven spring from 100% freshly ground whole spelt but cannot go above 67% or it’s flat in both flavor and spring. Attached is a photo of a couple spelt loaves, one 65% hydration, the other is 70% hydration. The fatter one is 65. The best benefit is that spelt has a much more rich, nutty flavor than red wheat.
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Hi Dean,
Wonderful loaves! Thanks for the comment - I hope you can share the spelt recipe you use when you get a chance.
Now I’m not an expert even by far (I’m a newbie - still way to go till my 100th loaf), but most people say spelt doesn’t tolerate even nearly as high a hydration level as wheat does. So it may be that 67% for spelt is more like 80% for some red wheat varieties (maybe someone with more experience can comment on that, although the bread-making process itself might introduce some variability, as does the place you live in, elevation etc). In fact at 65% I can’t even mix my whole wheat dough - I’m left with lots of dry flour that won’t incorporate. I did try several spelt loaves myself, and around 70% it was already quite loose. Flavorwise, I do see why some people love it more than regular wheat - for some purposes I do too, but my overall favorites are rye and einkorn, while for my wife red wheat has no competitor yet.
I’ve been doing SD breads for about a year, so still relatively new to it, also. I found that by using lower hydration and sticking with a consistent formula until I perfected it (as much as any formula can be perfected), I built confidence and know-how that could carry over to any formula in the future. Having said that, you are correct in that some flours will absorb more water than others. With einkorn I cannot go over 55-60% for a good loaf. Einkorn is not my personal favorite so I don’t do much with it. Out of all the flours I’ve tried, spelt is tops by a long ways…the sweet/nutty flavor is incredible. I do grind my own flours, which can make a huge difference in the final flavor. Here is my basic formula that I use for the two breads I make most frequently: 65-67% hydration; 500g total flour, including what’s in the levain…this size of loaf works perfectly for me and makes any variances in formula easy. I use equal parts of liquid & stiff levain. In a 500g loaf I will use 100g levain. Liquid is 100% hydration and stiff is 40% hydration. The stiff has been aged for 6-9 weeks in the fridge before using. 2% salt, plus what ever water is needed for hydration. I intentionally underproof my loaves, especially the spelt. I only give it 50-75% rise. Final dough weight per loaf is around 850g. Spelt ferments very quickly and I made a lot of bricks before getting it right.
Thanks - I was looking forward to your answer, as I do hope to try a few spelt loaves this week. But it’s not clear to me what process you use. Is it the no-knead spelt bread that Eric has here on Breadtopia? Or is it a kneaded bread - if so, how do you knead it? Or perhaps you do stretch-and-folds?
BTW, the process that I found works best for me is the one from breadwerx.com, with a long overnight autolyse.
Hi Dan. I too like Trevor’s methods and have used many of them a good bit. If you’re referring to his method of mixing flour, water, and salt, then leave overnight, it’s not technically an autolyse because of the salt. Salt will slow enzyme activity a lot. The purpose of an autolyse is to enhance enzyme activity. Trevor’s overnight method is for development of gluten as well as thorough hydration, not enzymes, and it works very well for that. As a side note, I’ve found that using water at about 125F can accomplish the same thing in a much shorter period of time. However, make sure you do not add levain when the dough is at that temp. It is a method you can use if you’re in a hurry.
Okay, to answer your question: For the spelt loaf I do 3-4 stretch & folds and no autolyse. Spelt has very little gluten and the autolyse will literally eat up the gluten and I end up with flat loaves. I like to keep things as simple as possible so for most of my loaves I mix everything together at once…flour, water, starter, and salt. (With basic bread there is no need to have highly technical processes to make excellent bread. Folks say my bread is the best SD they’ve every eaten, and frankly I agree, lol). As far as fermentation times, you’ll have to figure that one out for yourself. There are so many variables involved in the fermentation & proofing process and I could write paragraphs on the subject to cover all of them and the various results one gets from altering the parameters.
Finally, I highly encourage you to try using 2 month old 40% hydration motherdough (for whole wheat you may need to go 50% for it to be mixable). Or, 2 week old 60% hydration motherdough. It adds a whole new dimension to the flavor of the bread that cannot be explained other than to say it’s very complex and rich. I also never make “white” bread that’s all white…most of the time I use at least 20% whole grains, which also adds to the final flavor & nutritional value.
I’ve attached a photo of three loaves, from left to right 10% whole grains, 100% spelt, 25% whole grain. I wanted to add one with a crumb shot but it wouldn’t let me because the file was too big. Will add later.
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Thanks again Dean for your lengthy answers, this was very helpful for me. If you have a chance to share a crumb picture for the spelt loaf, that will be excellent.
Yes, I do know that’s not technically an autolyse because of the salt. BTW, I shared some of my loaves with a couple of German colleagues from Munich, and they told me it was the best bread they ever had in the US, and better than the one they used to get at the famous Hopfpfisterei. I don’t believe it, but it does look like we’re able to bake some pretty tasty bread at home these days. My wife grew up on home-made country bread baked following a long tradition in a dedicated wood-fired oven, so pretty high standards, but she lately started to agree on that statement.
Hi Dan. My understanding, from different forums I’ve followed, is that we have access to better quality grains and flours here in the US than some European countries.
Using 100% spelt does not make for a light, airy crumb, but done correctly, it’s not too bad. Not nearly as dense as a rye loaf, but not quite as light as a 100% whole wheat. It is actually lighter than it looks in the photo. A lot of it has to do with fermentation times…I never let it double in volume; 50-75% increase, max.
Perfectly fine by my standards used to rye bread. When climbing, many times I wanted bread like this - one slice packs a lot of nutrition. Not so for my other half though, she wants airy bread.
Below is a link to a spelt bread made with roux which I tried and have to say is still one of the marvelous ones on my list, maybe you’ll want to give it a try. The dough was wetter (in my case took quite a long time to proof) and as the author says had to be poured in the dutch oven, but it did rise a lot in the oven and the crumb was more open, very moist and extremely tasty:
I enjoyed this conversation and learned a lot! Thanks for taking all that time to reply,
Dan
Hi Dan…thanks for the link. I checked it out and I’m sure it’s quite tasty. I’d probably use whole grain spelt flour rather than all purpose. The type of roux they use is much like the sponge Peter Reinhart uses in his whole grain book.
I have worked with Kamut (korhasan) but found it entirely too sticky. However, the end product is very sweet which leads me to believe that it contains a lot of enzymes which converts the starch to sugars. That may also be why it’s so sticky. I use korhasan as an added flour to white loaves for flavor, but didn’t find it manageable in a 100% loaf with very little oven spring and quite dense final product. The sweetness is very nice, though. At any rate, it may be interesting to try this loaf sometime.
I’ve found there is quite a bit of difference in spelt from one supplier to another. In my experience, Great River Organic Milling has the best spelt for making bread and has been consistent, so far. I know that could change anytime as crops vary from one year to the next, as well as by location & growing methods. I tried spelt from Pleasant Hill Grains and it wouldn’t hold water very well. The dough got slack with very little oven spring when compared side by side with GROM spelt. GROM also has a pretty good price on spelt…about 2 bucks a pound.
Cheers & good luck!
I did use whole-milled spelt myself for that recipe. Even before starting baking I had decided I wanted to mill my own flours, so my whole grains are always freshly milled. For most heirloom grains I use what Eric sells, but not so for spelt since my local food coop sells organic spelt around $2.39. Unfortunately, I don’t know who’s growing it, but I’ll check that out.
I did have success with 100% Kamut, which I bake around 85% hydration, although it does hold a little more. I also add it to some other recipes. Attached is a picture of a 100% whole-milled Kamut loaf, this one was only 80% hydration, a little dry. I have to say I use a linen couche in the banetton, otherwise it would probably stick.
I know a lot of folks make Kamut loaves with good results. I may need to try a different supplier of Kamut and see what happens. It was very difficult to work with at 65% hydration. I seldom go above 70% on my loaves; I personally don’t care for the texture and crumb at those higher levels, even though it seems to be “all the rage” to do high hydration. I’ve worked with 100% a couple times…it’s definitely interesting and in some ways easier to handle than 85%, IMO.
Thanks for the discussion!
Hi, Dean and Dan,
I’ve been reading your correspondence with a lot of interest. I’ve been doing sourdough baking for about the same time as both of you and only recently have begun feeling like I know what I’m doing, at least in a small way. Just recently I discovered by chance that I have been over-proofing my 100% home-milled whole spelt breads, trying to reach a 100% rise in the fermentation and proofing. I totally agree with you Dean, 50-75% is the way to go, 100% exhausts the dough. Now I’m getting much better oven spring.
I also found that if I sift the flour and cook the sifted bits in some of the water from the recipe, I can get a much higher hydration, better-handling dough, and better oven spring. My mill produces a fairly coarse grind, so I think cooking the bran helps considerably to soften it and prevent some of the gluten damage that whole grain flour causes. It also seems to capture the water it’s cooked in, so higher hydration is possible. I read your link to the roux process and am guessing that cooking the bran produces a similar gelatinizing effect.
I am lucky to have a local farmer that grows organic spelt, einkorn, emmer, rye and Appalachian White Wheat, which is unfortunately not an heirloom variety. It’s really interesting to see the differences between my local grains and commercial flours.
You both are making some great-looking loaves of bread! Thanks for the inspiration!
Hi Wendy,
Hope I got your name right. Thanks for your message. Personally, I’m entering the fourth month of baking, so you may have been at it longer. Nevertheless, I did realize pretty soon that the coarseness of the flour makes a difference. Some whole wheat flours, even those produced by long-time millers like Bob’s Red Mill stoneground, are very coarse/grainy, and won’t get you the rise that’s possible from the same grain. I was unlucky enough to have my first stone mill defective, then graciously replaced by the company with the same model which still produces a little sand that I feel in my bread, especially when milling Kamut (very hard grain). So I got really upset and a bit crazy and invested in a Royal Lee which I got from Eric, and I couldn’t be any happier. No more tiny sand particles in my flour, and all of a sudden my bread started rising much better. I’m even planning some whole-wheat croissants soon.
I did see the idea with cooking the bran before on theperfectloaf.com. I didn’t try that, but all the bread I did with a roux came out extremely tasty and with a nice crumb texture.
Best of luck in your endeavors,
Dan
Baked this morning: 61.5% whole grain (46.1% whole wheat; 15.4% rye); 90% hydration; bulk fermented 5 hours; proofed in fridge about 15 hours.
This is very nice! I still have to try that hydration level - thinking of it makes me a little anxious. In the meantime, I also got a pretty nice result today with 100% whole-milled hard white spring wheat at 86% hydration. Open crumb and a wonderful taste!
I love this thread but so strange to me. I grind my own (in a BlendTec blender) and emmer I need to go to the 90% hydration or so to get more or less workable dough though really more like paste or batter. It is so weak though that to get anything other than a thick flatbread I use a loaf pan. Same with barley. Kamut I have been using 70% hydration which seems to be what it takes me to get past too dry, crumbly dough but it too won’t really hold shape very well without a loaf pan. Not sure what’s up with all that; could it be because I don’t use salt. My mouth misses it buy my body is MUCH happier without.
Hi Geoffrey,
Thanks for joining in! Your message makes clear just how different our experiences can be. An eye-opener in that direction was Dean’s post about the two different spelt suppliers. I definitely can bake 100% Kamut at 70% hydration, but while the loaf would rise nicely it would be dry and not quite that tasty. I like the custard-like crumb that higher hydration levels produce (or that I get when using a roux). What surprises me in your message is that you can get flour with a blender. Is it anywhere close to being fine enough? A fine flour does lead to a loaf that rises well if there is some gluten present. That wouldn’t be too much the case with barley, I think. But if there’s a chance and you can take the time, I’d like to learn more about your barley and emmer experiences. Actually I just posted a couple days ago a new topic asking for advice on baking with 100% emmer. I also want to try barley, I heard it brings some sweetness to the bread. Do you use hulled barley or the pearled one (i.e. with some of the bran removed)? How does the taste compare between emmer and barley? Please do post a picture if you have the time. We’ll all learn more this way.
I don’t think missing salt reduces the rise. In fact, it may be do the opposite, since salt cuts down the enzyme activity a lot. Tuscan bread is baked without salt and rises nicely.
Unfortunately no photos but both barley and emmer I get a moderate amount of rise but also quite a bit of oven spring when I bake them.
I have a BlendTech blender (competitor to VitaMix) and it is rated at 1560 watts or 3 horsepower. You could almost run your car off it if you had a long enough extension cord HAH! So yes, somewhat coarse flour but plenty fine enough and I do not sift or otherwise remove any of the coarsest bits; it all goes in the bread.
I do get an ok shaped bread if I bake free standing as boule or batard with 100% kamut but the other two really mostly rise and spring horizontally.
Just tried setting up a 65% batch of kamut and while it does consolidate after autolyse etc it is DENSE and was a real challenge to get all the flour wetted out. In the end I added enough water to make it 70%